Is California Finally Making Great White Wines?

[Thomas_Keim]

I am certainly fond of many of the wines mentioned, but I think there were excellent Calif whites before 2005.

+1

Indeed, one could go so far as to say something like the 1980 Chalone Reserve Chardonnay from a cold cellar would be more competitive with a great white Burgundy of the same era than any of the excellent California whites being made today.

'Zackly. California’s always made great Chardonnay - The old Fisher bottlings, Duane Cronin, Kistler, David Bruce, I could go on and on. And I love the big, lusty Chardonnays, and have never been fond of people trying to emulate White Burgundy. Be thankful you have the California sun and weather and take full advantage of. Lots of great, lean Chardonnays made in Europe and our East Coast.

[J_a_y_H_a_c_k]

In the entire spectrum of Chardonnay styles, Burgundian Chardonnay is principally at one end of the spectrum. They are very good that end of the spectrum, but they stay at that end.

Between things such as Domaine de la Bongran from Viré-Clessé at always >14% alcohol, with botrytis and a few grams of RS, to the raciest wines of Chablis—via the ample, enveloping grands crus of Chassagne and Pulingy and the steelier wines of Saint-Aubin or Saint-Romain—I would say that Burgundian Chardonnay spans just as big a gap as the continuum that begins with Ceritas and ends with Marcassin.

Unless you come to the US often, you do not have any chance to understand the breadth of wine styles in California because they are just not available on the other side of the pond. Botrytis and a few grams of RS are not the defining terms of one side of the spectrum.

[J_a_y_H_a_c_k]

Oh yeah, and I forgot to mention that other issue - California, by some magical divine intervention, has also avoided premox for reasons no one seem able to explain.

[William_Kelley]

In the entire spectrum of Chardonnay styles, Burgundian Chardonnay is principally at one end of the spectrum. They are very good that end of the spectrum, but they stay at that end.

Between things such as Domaine de la Bongran from Viré-Clessé at always >14% alcohol, with botrytis and a few grams of RS, to the raciest wines of Chablis—via the ample, enveloping grands crus of Chassagne and Pulingy and the steelier wines of Saint-Aubin or Saint-Romain—I would say that Burgundian Chardonnay spans just as big a gap as the continuum that begins with Ceritas and ends with Marcassin.

Unless you come to the US often, you do not have any chance to understand the breadth of wine styles in California because they are just not available on the other side of the pond. Botrytis and a few grams of RS are not the defining terms of one side of the spectrum.

I live half the year in the US, half the year in Burgundy… I would say that I’m quite familiar with the breadth of wine styles in California, having reviewed everything south of San Francisco for The Wine Advocate and the North Coast for Decanter Magazine.

[Mike_C1]

As for pricing, that’s an interesting one. Ex-domaine, Ramonet Bâtard is cheaper than Aubert Sugar Shack, and Niellon’s Chevalier is cheaper than Marcassin. So comparing allocation pricing with allocation pricing (as opposed to retail), the white Burgundies are arguably better value.

Let me know whenever you don’t pick up 100% of your allocations—I’ll find a way to fly over and pick up your scraps!

[Tom_G_l_a_s_g_o_w]

Between things such as Domaine de la Bongran from Viré-Clessé at always >14% alcohol, with botrytis and a few grams of RS, to the raciest wines of Chablis—via the ample, enveloping grands crus of Chassagne and Pulingy and the steelier wines of Saint-Aubin or Saint-Romain—I would say that Burgundian Chardonnay spans just as big a gap as the continuum that begins with Ceritas and ends with Marcassin.

Unless you come to the US often, you do not have any chance to understand the breadth of wine styles in California because they are just not available on the other side of the pond. Botrytis and a few grams of RS are not the defining terms of one side of the spectrum.

I live half the year in the US, half the year in Burgundy… I would say that I’m quite familiar with the breadth of wine styles in California, having reviewed everything south of San Francisco for The Wine Advocate and the North Coast for Decanter Magazine.

Jay must have you confused with another William Kelley.

[William_Kelley]

And, of course, earlier Marcassin. The 1996 Marcassin Hudson E Block Chard might still reign as the best CaliChard I’ve ever had and probably is in the top 30 all-time white wines.

The 1996 Lorenzo is even better IMO! Think their 1996s were better a few years ago but still holding pretty well.

[Howard_Cooper]

Ramey still sets the bar for US Chardonnay IMO. The mentions of Massican, Matthiasson, Ceritas, Kutch, etc. also ring true.

Unfortunately there will always be this nebulous distinction of great, world class or better than on a completely subjective assessment. I happen to find most White Burgundy (save Chablis) wildly overrated for its price level, but clearly some others would disagree.

So of course California is making great white wine. It’s just not for everyone’s taste. Same goes for every wine region.

Absolutely true. A young Ramey or Aubert, not to mention Rhys chardonnay is pretty damn good. Would be fun to do another Judgment of Paris today with some GC Burgs lined up against the best of California. Who is up to the challenge?

Count me in, but it would be very easy to tell which one was the Aubert (I have done this)…

Me too. Did a large blind tasting of White Burgs (including Chablis) vs. California Chardonnay about 12-15 years ago at a partner retreat and mostly they were easy to tell apart. Wines from wineries like Aubert, Kistler, etc., were easy to pick out as being from California because of the heavy oak signatures. The one California Chardonnay that I could not pick out as being from California was Williams-Seylem.

[Jim_Cowan]

Then of course there is Stony Hill Chardonnay.

Especially with 20-30 years on it.
They have been making great wine a very long time - a heck of a track record.
They just don’t come up in conversation much.
‘Kind of like Kalin Cellars.
Best, jim

[Mel_Knox]

Jay,
Don’t feel bad about misunderstanding Wm Kelley’s identity. Only recently did I discover he is a wine vampire, born 400 years ago near Forks, Washington.
He looks like a sophomore in high school but he has been collecting wine since around 1810…what a cellar!!
He helped brick off those Thomas Jefferson wines in Paris around 1820, but drank most of the wines around 1950.

[Kevin_Porter]

Then of course there is Stony Hill Chardonnay.

Especially with 20-30 years on it.
They have been making great wine a very long time - a heck of a track record.
They just don’t come up in conversation much.
‘Kind of like Kalin Cellars.
Best, jim

You beat me to Kalin Chard. I’ve not had many of the big CA names but I’d be shocked to find them better than Kalin.

[William_Kelley]

Then of course there is Stony Hill Chardonnay.

Especially with 20-30 years on it.
They have been making great wine a very long time - a heck of a track record.
They just don’t come up in conversation much.
‘Kind of like Kalin Cellars.
Best, jim

You beat me to Kalin Chard. I’ve not had many of the big CA names but I’d be shocked to find them better than Kalin.

The Sémillons deserve a mention, too… the Laville Haut Brion of California…

[Mel_Knox]

I only drink the Kalin wines when I go to an amazing restaurant in Livermore. They will serve 20 yo kalin btg.
I feel the wine might be better a tad younger but a chacun son gout.

You ll notice Wm is not denying he is a vampire … the only other explanation is that he is two or three people !

[William_Kelley]

I only drink the Kalin wines when I go to an amazing restaurant in Livermore. They will serve 20 yo kalin btg.
I feel the wine might be better a tad younger but a chacun son gout.

You ll notice Wm is not denying he is a vampire … the only other explanation is that he is two or three people !

I was at that restaurant last month, Mel! Fortunately, they went easy on the garlic…

[Mel_Knox]

There are some amazing things in that wine list.

[Merrill_Lindquist]

Then of course there is Stony Hill Chardonnay.

I have been sitting on a magnum of 1994 Stony Hill Chardonnay for quite awhile. Think there is anything in there?

[Mel_Knox]

We were talking earlier about prices, allocations, etc. Aubert, Marcassin and several other wineries allocate their wines to a mailing list. You could say the same is true for certain domaines in Burgundy. I have friends who have been buying Coche for decades. They have yet to give me the secret handshake. The local distributor for Leflaive always wanted you to buy an array of their wines, not just Leflaive or Dujac.

I suppose most of us are ITB and we have our connections, but what about the civilians amongst us?

The two wines that anybody in the USA and the UK can buy easily are ABC and Ramey. If it’s legal to ship to your state, they can do it. Berry Bros can take care of you in the UK. ABC also does well in Germany and Japan.

I see Mt Eden around, don’t know how they do overseas. I tried to get Jasper Morris MW interested in the wine for his old firm but he resisted.

[Mel_Knox]

Merrill, you and I have a similar problem…I have all these magnums and three liter bottles I used to open at big events…

[David_Bu3ker]

Then of course there is Stony Hill Chardonnay.

I have been sitting on a magnum of 1994 Stony Hill Chardonnay for quite awhile. Think there is anything in there?

Well stored, hell yes.

[Merrill_Lindquist]

Then of course there is Stony Hill Chardonnay.

I have been sitting on a magnum of 1994 Stony Hill Chardonnay for quite awhile. Think there is anything in there?

Well stored, hell yes.

Think I would do anything else with it?