Two different beasts. Once you add Santa Cruz Mountains, the choices become a little better. I sill gravitate heavily towards Bordeaux, but have no problem picking up Togni, Ridge and Mount Eden, all decent values.
I guess I don’t view them as separate beasts. Both California Cab and Bordeaux today have many spoofed wines that I stay away from. But, both regions have many classicly styled wines that I would consider pretty much competitive with each other, certainly in the sense I would buy either (and have over the years) and likely drink either with pretty much the same types of food.
And, for me, both have really become minefields because both have so many spoofed wines. Given that I don’t buy as much of either as I used to, I have trouble keeping up with who has turned to the dark side. Fortunately, this board (esp. posts from people like Mark and Robert) are very helpful in that regard.
Price point aside: how well do US-Cabs AGE … compared to fine Bordeaux? … and I mean mature wines that show real tertiaer aromas with sound structure, providing immense pleasure when drinking?
My experience with US Cabs is limited - more so at lower price point, but I know quite a few that showed very well at age 25/30/40 years … however that were high end wines, nothing available below 100 $, usually 200+
(ok, Montelena isn´t THAT expensive - is it?)
Leonetti comes to mind, for near term drinking I like most of the Januik lineup.For wines that will go 10+ Years I would recommend Andrew Will, Woodword Canyon Old Vines and most anything from Red Mountain
Non-modernist Bordeaux and some of the more reserved California wines aren’t the same, but both can scratch my itch for nuanced cab driven wines with a sense of place. Of course, a few other regions can do that as well.
I regularly get to taste ‘70s and ‘80s Napa Cabs from classic producers, and they are often wonderful. The ‘74 Mayacamas I had ten days ago was still holding some fruit, but also had cedar and earthy notes and a long, complex finish with perfect structural balance. I have had similar experiences with old Mondavi, Clos du Val, Heitz and others. There are still classic producers in Napa (e.g. Heitz, Stony Hill), and I am quite confident their wines will evolve very well.
QPR Napa cabs are difficult to find, but not impossible. 2015 Picayune Cab for $30 from Envoyer was lovely tonight, a wine that I would buy at $50.
Of course they are not the same. How could either scratch anyone’s itch for wines with a sense of place if wines from thousands of miles away from each other tasted the same.
California Cabernets do not age like Bordeaux. California Cabernets age like California Cabernets. This is not the 1970s. The ability of top California Cabernets like Ridge Montebello, Chateau Montelena, Dunn, Dominus, Mondavi Reserve, the old Sterling Cabernets (most similar now would be Forman, as Ric Forman made those Sterling Cabernets), and wines that used to be made as BV Reserve, Inglenook Cask or Phelps Insignia long ago proved that California Cabernet if made properly can age very, very well and for a very long time. However, where wineries turn to the dark side, the ability of the wines made to age in the way you describe becomes questionable. Wineries on both sides of the Atlantic (whether Phelps or Troplong Mondot) have this issue.
Is there any wine region in the world that offers the value Bordeaux still does in the $35-50 range? You can still get excellent classed growths like Branaire Ducru or various Margaux in that range, or new right bank up and comers like Tour Christophe
German riesling
Subtext… Modernist versions tend to be far less successful delivering that experience.
Do you mean the wine or the story?
You can get great vintages of Pichon Baron for $165, have a hard time believing that MacDonald is better if you like deep, intense, but restrained and elegant Cab.
The wine
Rioja. You can pick up a 12-15 year old Reserva from LdH for $30-35. You can’t even get similarly aged Bordeaux from value-stalwarts like Cantemerle or Meyney for that.
edit: Chianti Classico as a runner up.
A little pedantic Howard. Considering that there’s an implied premise in the thread, I’m just calling out that while they’re not fungible, both are interesting and tasty in their own ways, generally so long as their approach is more classicist.