It is well known (it is, isn’t it?) that skin-contact whites and orange wines, given a lengthy skin-contact thru fermentation and sometimes beyond, have their varietal character obliterated and show not much more than that familiar phenolic character.
We, as high-level wine connysewers (sniff/sniff), all know that white wines made from Labrusca and French-American hybrids make abominable
whites because they can be too grapey/foxy (in the case of Labrusca) and too coarse/earthy (in the case of hybrids) and because they don’t smell/taste like those from vinifera.
Voila…here’s the solution…make Labrusca whites and hybrid whites using extensive skin-contact and obliterate that much disliked varietal character they show.
Anybody know if that’s been tried by anybody anywhere??
And???
This is not a troll…just a genuine/honest question.
Tom
We have a lot of hybrids still in the mid-Atlantic but I don’t recall ever seeing an orange wine from one. If it’s been done in this area Joe Fiola is probably involved in some manner. There was a time when he was pushing chambourcin to be made in an amarone style as the signature wine of Southern Maryland. Not really a bad idea but not exactly a commercially viable signature wine either.
Keuka Lake Vineyards in the Finger Lakes has what I believe is a pet-nat made with the Delaware grape. It was a light rose in color, dry, but still had the foxy labrusca character. Different for sure.
A bit off-subject for Tom’s original question - and for the record I don’t believe I’ve never run across an orange wine made from Labrusca or hybrid grape varieties - but bringing up the subject of pét-nat wines from those varieties, La Garagista Farm + Winery in Vermont is making some nice ones. Notes below from the Brumaire wine tasting in Oakland back in March.
La Garagista Farm + Winery
La Garagista is the project of Deirdre Heekin, who was on hand at the Brumaire tasting. Located in central Vermont, Deirdre and her husband Caleb Barber first planted a vegetable garden and orchard for their nearby restaurant in 1999, and Deirdre expanded to making wine and cider by 2010. She produces a variety of wines, many from hybrid grape varieties not typically seen in California, and makes many sparklers, most but not all by the pét-nat method. I tasted four sparkling wines from La Garagista. The > 2015 “Ci Confonde” White Pétillant Naturel > was made from Brianna grapes – somewhat cloudy in appearance, with floral, Muscat-like aromatics and plenty of acidity. The > 2015 “Ci Confonde” Rosé Pétillant Naturel> , from Frontenac Gris, was my favorite of the wines here, with earth, lots of spice, cranberry, and a bit of lemonpeel. Two yet-to-be-released wines followed, starting with a tank sample of > 2015 “Vinu Jancu,” > made from the La Crescent variety – a relative of Muscat, which showed in the perfumey aromatics. I finished with a barrel sample of > 2015 “Loups Garoux,” > from Frontenac grapes – more lightly sparkling than the first three wines, with tart red fruit. An interesting producer working with some different grape varieties.
I’ve never heard of an orange wine made from hybrids, but it’s not a terrible idea. I have had some pretty good ice wines made from Vidal grapes. Inniskillin, which has become more of a factory these days, used to make an excellent one. I’d think that same principle applies to ice wine, i.e. obliterating the character of the variety.
While I’ve done my share of hybrid bashing (most specimens are pretty awful), there are some wineries that do good work with hybrids. Garagista, mentioned above, is the shining example. Those of us in the Northeast who like to support regional wines don’t share the advantages of Mr. Hill, and thus can’t easily dismiss hybrids out of hand - at least not until global warming puts us on an even footing with California. So we are grateful for the exceptions.
I am curious about what we may see from the OP’s suggestion/inquiry in the future.
I know that a lot of attention is being dedicated to engineering a hybrid that is 97%+ vinifera for use in the South (UC Davis in conjunction with TX and AL).
maybe you posted this because you knew I made a white Catawba 2003
The wines were also well received at home in the United States where Henry Wadsworth Longfellow published a poem dedicated to Nicholas Longworth titled Ode to Catawba Wine. The popularity of Longsworth’s wine encouraged a flurry of plantings along the Ohio River Valley and up north to Lake Erie and Finger Lakes region of New York.[5] So influential was Longworth’s Catawba wine that newspapers began referring to him as “the founder of wine culture in America, author of sparkling Catawba.”[14]
Catawba won the heart of the Europeans late 1800’s
, this wine was awarded honorable mention at the Exposition Universelle in Paris, the first American Sparkling wine to win an award in Europe. In 1873 in Vienna, the winery’s champagne was awarded first prize and its first European medal; since then the Company’s champagnes have received numerous European gold medals and other awards.
so hybrids can win awards of distinction …
and a white Delaware 2003 and without the skins the Cat taste like Sauv Blanc and the Delaware like a Gruner Veltliner tasting notes … so its the opposite of what you posted … I have experimented with extended skin contact it makes things unpalatable on many levels… the spices come out in a very bad way the fox pisses all over the batch … French American Hybrid grape like Seval Blanc are excellent ice wine or late harvest wines … I have in my library these wines and they are fresh and clean and do not taste like hybrids, if you ever get to the FLX I will Coravin them for you … I have a late harvest wine, a cab and the first Italian straw matted Riesling that took down Int Gold … I wan’t you to try … please PM me your ship to info… TY … I want you to see what I have been up to…
I have these Hybrids that can fool an expert with this nice age they are unified great bottles …
There are a number of orange wines made here in Japan from Labrusca and Hybrids.
Off the top of my head I know of Campbell Early, Delaware, Niagara, Verdelet, Vignoles, and our indigenous Koshu, to name a few.
Results vary, but to your premise… fermenting on skins is usually not enough to remove or mask those characters you describe.
Bruce, I’ve had a couple of Koshu wines (not orange ones) and enjoyed them. I seem to recall reading that it’s a hybrid of a Vinifera variety and something else - can you shed any more light on the origins of the Koshu grape? Thanks.
The foxy character comes from the skins, so minimizing skin contact is part of what you’d want to do to avoid that character.
The oxidative character of many orange wines certainly obscures a lot, but one could argue a non-oxidative skin-contact white shows true varietal character that is normally avoided.
Btw, recently got to revisit the Fogarty skin contact Chard. Early on it was lean and vertical, not much fruit, tons of dried savory herbs, especially summer savory. Now it’s toned down and rounded out. Recognizable as Chard, but filled with savory herbs. Fun, but not for everyone. Seems like it would be great with charcuterie
Just had a look at Jancis Robinson’s Wine Grapes book, and it describes Koshu as a Vinifera variety, not a hybrid. Looks like it’s a cross between two other Vinifera varieties (though those were unknown as of the publication of the book) and introduced to Japan at some point.
Koshu is definitely not V. vinifera.
DNA sequencing done in recent years has shown that it’s genetic material is about 70% vinifera, with the remaining amount coming from an unknown source (most likely a wild grape from China, perhaps V. davidii).
It is apparently a naturally occurring hybrid.
For further info, search on-line for a paper entitled ‘Genetic Analysis of East Asian Grape Cultivars Suggests Hybridization with Wild Vitis’. Lead author’s name Dr. Nami Goto.
I’ll add to the chorus: La Garagista in Vermont does persistently interesting and often extremely delicious work. There are some misses, yes, but given the climate’s narrow margins and the experimentation that’s always going on, that’s to be expected. Skin contact is sometimes involved.
Also, absolutely wonderful people. (Yes, disclosure: they’re friends of mine.)
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