Napa Cab Recommendations for an Old World Dude?

[Keith_A_k_e_r_s]

I’ve never gotten into Napa cabs but perhaps that’s because I’d simply not found the right bottles. I recently tasted '17 Di Costanzo “DI CO” and a '15 Eisele Vineyard Altagracia and enjoyed both very much. I was hoping to get some bottle suggestions in the $25/$50/$100/$150 ranges so I can put together a little tasting at different price points. If it’s any help, the red wines I drink most are cru Bojo, Burg, Barbaresco, and N Rhone. I appreciate any feedback.

Based on the wine types you like to drink, I’d suggest you look to Paso-Robles. They have numerous Rhone types there. Way more than Napa… Over the mountain to Sonoma, Dry Creek and Alexander Valley you will find more Rhones as well. For Napa, you will find several Bordeaux’ish blends. For Burgundy’ish Pinot’s, I don’t know… I do not get many “barnyard” characteristics from Napa or Sonoma that I would normally equate to Burgs.

For right/left bank blends that remind me of France (dirty fruit), Peter Micheal, Morlet, Dominus, and Melka pop into my mind. They are all north of 100 per bottle though…

I can’t think of anything the OP would want to drink less than the Rhone-styled wines from Paso given their stated preferences. I don’t think what they are looking for is “dirty fruit” or “barnyard” characteristics and instead more a NorCal Cab that shows off place and balance.


I would certainly agree with the recs of Togni and Spotteswoode, though those have gone up in price by a good bit in recent years. Heitz, Mayacamas, and Smith-Madrone certainly fit the bill imo

[B_Davies]

California can be difficult because it can be 80% cab and 20% merlot and they can still be labeled cab w/o calling it a bdx blend. It does require some knowledge about the wines specifically.

This is not a “California” thing. It’s a Federal regulation, and the minimum for a single-variety-labeled wine is 75%.
The producer is not obligated to state other varieties. So, it could be 75% Cabernet, 15% Pinot Noir, 3% Chenin Blanc, and 7% Catawba, and be labeled “Cabernet Sauvignon.”
Grape Variety Designations on American Wine Labels | TTB: Alcohol and Tobacco Tax Trade Bureau

I’m aware, but I see a lot of this being stretched in California.

[Nate_Simon]

California can be difficult because it can be 80% cab and 20% merlot and they can still be labeled cab w/o calling it a bdx blend. It does require some knowledge about the wines specifically.

This is not a “California” thing. It’s a Federal regulation, and the minimum for a single-variety-labeled wine is 75%.
The producer is not obligated to state other varieties. So, it could be 75% Cabernet, 15% Pinot Noir, 3% Chenin Blanc, and 7% Catawba, and be labeled “Cabernet Sauvignon.”
Grape Variety Designations on American Wine Labels | TTB: Alcohol and Tobacco Tax Trade Bureau

I’m aware, but I see a lot of this being stretched in California.

“Stretched” in what way? If they label it “Cabernet” and have at least 75% Cabernet in the bottle, it’s not any sort of stretch, at least as far as the legal requirements go.

[Steve_Crawford]

This is not a “California” thing. It’s a Federal regulation, and the minimum for a single-variety-labeled wine is 75%.
The producer is not obligated to state other varieties. So, it could be 75% Cabernet, 15% Pinot Noir, 3% Chenin Blanc, and 7% Catawba, and be labeled “Cabernet Sauvignon.”
Grape Variety Designations on American Wine Labels | TTB: Alcohol and Tobacco Tax Trade Bureau

I’m aware, but I see a lot of this being stretched in California.

“Stretched” in what way? If they label it “Cabernet” and have at least 75% Cabernet in the bottle, it’s not any sort of stretch, at least as far as the legal requirements go.

thanks for this, i agree. it’s binary. stretched is anything but.

[B_Davies]

This is not a “California” thing. It’s a Federal regulation, and the minimum for a single-variety-labeled wine is 75%.
The producer is not obligated to state other varieties. So, it could be 75% Cabernet, 15% Pinot Noir, 3% Chenin Blanc, and 7% Catawba, and be labeled “Cabernet Sauvignon.”
Grape Variety Designations on American Wine Labels | TTB: Alcohol and Tobacco Tax Trade Bureau

I’m aware, but I see a lot of this being stretched in California.

“Stretched” in what way? If they label it “Cabernet” and have at least 75% Cabernet in the bottle, it’s not any sort of stretch, at least as far as the legal requirements go.

I find depending on the varietal even 2% is noticeable in the glass. The EU is 85% of the stated varietal which to me is more acceptable than 75%.

[B_Davies]

75% isn’t a passing grade in any school I’ve attended.

[Vince_L1]

<$50 - Maître de Chai Massa

$50 - Frogs Leap

$75-100 - Beta /Matthiason

$100-150 - Dunn / Forman / Ceritas / Arnot Roberts / Corison

Under $50 - Matthiasson makes a compelling Village one.

I can’t think of anything the OP would want to drink less than the Rhone-styled wines from Paso given their stated preferences. I don’t think what they are looking for is “dirty fruit” or “barnyard” characteristics and instead more a NorCal Cab that shows off place and balance.

Tablas Creek in Paso would work tho.

[Steve_Crawford]

75% isn’t a passing grade in any school I’ve attended.

you said you ‘see’ it being stretched. i guess the schools you attended didn’t say provide actual proof.

anecdotal beliefs established between your palate and brain are a lot different than seeing something being stretched.

[bddehn]

If you prefer your Old World with some age on them, seek out some older Cali Cab bottles:

• Dunn Howell Mountain (late 80s through to early 90s)
• Beaulieu Georges de Latour Private Reserve (late 70s through to early 90s)
• Heitz Martha’s Vineyard (late 70s to late 90s, but be careful about the late 80s/early 90s as they had TCA issues in those years, and didn’t make the wine at all in 93-95)
• Dominus (late 80s and early 90s, especially 1991 and 1994)
• Spottswoode (80s and 90s)
• Burgess Vintage Selection (I’ve had some phenomenal bottles from the late 70s through to the early 90s)

If the above are in your wheelhouse, I have a selection of similar mid 80’s to early 90’s Napa/Sonoma Cabs (along with some additional older Bdx and misc.) that I was going to list later this year (after temps drop) on Commerce Corner. I had intended to ship to Wine Bid but decided they would be better appreciated within the group. If you are interested I could forward you the spreadsheet to take a look at. Again, I am in Northern California so shipping would be later (unless you are close by).

[Keith_A_k_e_r_s]

Tablas Creek in Paso would work tho.

For sure and there’s always exceptions. But, as someone who drinks almost all of the same regions that the OP noted, Paso would be way down on the list of areas to recommend. It wouldn’t even be a consideration

[Tom_R_W]

If you prefer your Old World with some age on them, seek out some older Cali Cab bottles:

• Dunn Howell Mountain (late 80s through to early 90s)
• Beaulieu Georges de Latour Private Reserve (late 70s through to early 90s)
• Heitz Martha’s Vineyard (late 70s to late 90s, but be careful about the late 80s/early 90s as they had TCA issues in those years, and didn’t make the wine at all in 93-95)
• Dominus (late 80s and early 90s, especially 1991 and 1994)
• Spottswoode (80s and 90s)
• Burgess Vintage Selection (I’ve had some phenomenal bottles from the late 70s through to the early 90s)

If the above are in your wheelhouse, I have a selection of similar mid 80’s to early 90’s Napa/Sonoma Cabs (along with some additional older Bdx and misc.) that I was going to list later this year (after temps drop) on Commerce Corner. I had intended to ship to Wine Bid but decided they would be better appreciated within the group. If you are interested I could forward you the spreadsheet to take a look at. Again, I am in Northern California so shipping would be later (unless you are close by).

Fyi- Andrew (the guy you quoted) passed away earlier this year.

[Victor_Hong]

Vintage matters more than winemaker, in this search.

Disagree with this completely. I would rather have a great winery in a “difficult” year (very rare in California anyway) than an average winery in a great year.

I would add Larkmead (around $100) to this discussion as they are nicely balanced wines. I also just had a '12 Virage and it is aging beautifully (<$70). At the higher end, I think Blankiet is making some of the best wines in their price range and they are very well balanced.

Moot disagreement now, as the older vintages have largely disappeared during the past two years.

[Michael_D]

I’ve never gotten into Napa cabs but perhaps that’s because I’d simply not found the right bottles. I recently tasted '17 Di Costanzo “DI CO” and a '15 Eisele Vineyard Altagracia and enjoyed both very much. I was hoping to get some bottle suggestions in the $25/$50/$100/$150 ranges so I can put together a little tasting at different price points. If it’s any help, the red wines I drink most are cru Bojo, Burg, Barbaresco, and N Rhone. I appreciate any feedback.

Based on the wine types you like to drink, I’d suggest you look to Paso-Robles. They have numerous Rhone types there. Way more than Napa… Over the mountain to Sonoma, Dry Creek and Alexander Valley you will find more Rhones as well. For Napa, you will find several Bordeaux’ish blends. For Burgundy’ish Pinot’s, I don’t know… I do not get many “barnyard” characteristics from Napa or Sonoma that I would normally equate to Burgs.

For right/left bank blends that remind me of France (dirty fruit), Peter Micheal, Morlet, Dominus, and Melka pop into my mind. They are all north of 100 per bottle though…

I can’t think of anything the OP would want to drink less than the Rhone-styled wines from Paso given their stated preferences. I don’t think what they are looking for is “dirty fruit” or “barnyard” characteristics and instead more a NorCal Cab that shows off place and balance.


I would certainly agree with the recs of Togni and Spotteswoode, though those have gone up in price by a good bit in recent years. Heitz, Mayacamas, and Smith-Madrone certainly fit the bill imo

Why would you say that, and say it in such a snarky way? He asked for “Any feedback”. I gave him mine.

One of the OP’s stated fav’s is N Rhone. To me, that’s mostly Syrah, Marsanne, Roussanne and Viognier. Those varietals immediately make me think of Paso Robles, as well as Sonoma…… Especially with the white grapes. NOT NAPA. Hence my suggestion to look at the Paso Robles and/or Sonoma region.

For Burgs, I definitely do not think of Napa. I have not ever had a PN from Napa reminiscent of anything close to “old world” burgs. No barnyard notes, ever.

Cru Beaujolais? Once again, I’m thinking Rhone varieties, which leads my mind back to Paso more than Napa. Maybe Sonoma or Santa Barbara area, but not Napa.

Barbaresco? That makes me think Italian, or more specifically, Nebbiolo. Can’t really think if too many Nebbiolo vineyards in Napa. Sonoma, maybe a handful. Paso, plenty. Santa Barbara area, some. Napa, nope. I have a few Altamura Nebbiolo’s in my cellar, and enjoy them immensely, but they sure don’t remind me of “old world”, and technically, Altamura fruit is not in Napa.

After those, I’m now pondering what other wines might the OP like that comes from Napa, that might have an “old world” kinda sense of place…… I’m left with Bordeaux. I’ve tasted hundreds of red grape blends from Napa over the last couple decades. Not all that many bring visions of a first, second, or even third growth R/L bank Bordeaux to me. A handful, but not many. And even fewer at the OP’s stated price points. I offered a couple suggestions, regardless.

Mabey I gave some shitty feedback, but at least I was honest and tried to help – without being a damn wine snob.

Oh yeah, the question was asked two years ago as well……

[Keith_A_k_e_r_s]

Sensitive much?

I just disagreed with what you said and you want to label me a wine snob and get testy. ‘Ave at it then.

But, if someone says that they’re a Northern Rhone fan, something like big and bold isn’t what they’re looking for from my experience.

If someone says that they’re into Piedmont, aromatics and structure are what they’re looking for from my experience.

Someone asking the question isn’t necessarily looking for a like for like and instead wants an experience that evokes the same feelings/taste buds.

This thread was necro’d and I didn’t see the date it was posted. So, if you want to take more shots at me, ‘ave at that as well.