Question for Bordeaux Lovers

[Yao_C]

I wonder where La Mission Haut Brion should go in this; IMO it deserves a mention for sheer consistency and being a bit cheaper than Haut Brion

[Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m]

I can’t comment on first growths because they’ve always been too expensive to be a part of my life.

2nd: Leoville Barton (edging-out Pichon Baron, due to QPR)
3rd: Malescot St. Exupery
4th: Branaire-Ducru
5th: Grand Puy Lacoste (hard to choose between GPL, Pontet Canet, and Cantemerle … just depends on how important QPR/Value is — I went in the middle)

Brian, thanks for the response. Why do you pick Malescot over the others in the 3rd class (just curious)?

Simply, because Malescot almost always impresses me.

[Rodrigo_B]

1st: out of my price range, but Lafite would take it if I could afford it regularly
2nd: Pichon Lalande
3rd: Calon Segur
4th: Branaire-Ducru
5th: Lynch-Bages

Not part of 1855, but still a favourite: Figeac

[O.G_Nikolai]

Tough call.
For 1. Cru i vote Latour (what else, lol)
As you might know the 1855 classifikation is kind of obsolete for many reasons.
I.e. Palmer is better than many second crus and on the other hand some second crus are worse than fifths. Palmer performs with top quality almost every year but is far away from being moderate priced imo.
Another topic is vintage/ apellation/ chateau performance, right/ left bank year and so on.
In 2016 its simply easy cause each apellation performed excellent.
So if you ask for 2016 only, my answer for pqr will be:
2. Leoville Barton
3. Calon Segur
4. Beychevelle
5. Grand Puy Lacoste
P.S.: will be my recommendation for 2019 left bankers too, interestingly…cave: bias

[Robert_Sand]

Haut-Brion
Leoville Las Cases
Palmer
Talbot *
Lynch-Bages

*would prefer another 5th growth like GPLacoste

[Jim_F]

Haut Brion
Montrose
Palmer
Branaire Ducru
Lynch Bages

[Robert.A.Jr]

1. Haut Brion
2. Montrose
3. Palmer is expensive but it really is in a class of its own here
   4 Beycheville
4. Lynch Bages

Today, that would be my list for quality regardless of price. Outstanding wines.

If I had to make some price adjustments, which I actually do in my own life, it could be:

1. I rarely buy them (Vieux Chateau Certain would be my equivalent, which I do buy)
2. Leoville Barton - easy decision, a Chateau I have bought since I got hooked on Bordeaux
3. Calon Segur (Ferriere, as a sleeper)
4. Brainaire Ducru
5. Grand Puy Lacoste - The QPR of the 5ths with Cantemerle as the consistent back-up)

I think the stars of the 5th Growth eclipse many of the wines of upper Growths, and likely would be 2nds today. Lynch Bages is a 2nd.

[Howard_Cooper]

First growth is hard to pin down (Latour doesn’t offer EP any longer) - most consistent IMHO is Lafite Rothschild
2nd. Leoville Barton or Poyferre depending on what style you prefer (Poyferre is more austere)
3rd. Giscours offers good value as well as Kirwan (Have a soft spot for Margaux that punches above its class)
4th. Beychevelle
5th. Grand Puy Lacoste seems to offer consistent drink ability, age worthiness, and QPR. Pontet - Canet also a close second.

“2nd. Leoville Barton or Poyferre depending on what style you prefer (Poyferre is more austere)”

Is that the general consensus?, I would have thought it the opposite, but I dont know poyferre well…

I used to be a fan of Leoville Poyferre (say the 1966 and 1970) but have not liked more recent vintages.

[Shoshana_Filene]

1. I go back and forth between Latour and Haut Brion - I think Latour is the most consistent of the first growths and performs best even in off-vintages (I dream about the 1966 and the 1996 and had a 1982 out of Magnum from the Chateau which was just incredible), but the elegance and minerality of Haut Brion just gets me (the 1998 is just remarkable)!
2. Gruaud Larose, Pichon Longueville Baron, Pichon Comtesse de Lalande, Montrose (first time I had the 1990 I couldn’t stop thinking about it for weeks) - lot of great 2nd growths, but these are the ones I search out.
3. Calon Segur
4. Have had some good bottles, but none that I consistently follow.
5. Grand Puy Lacoste, Lynch Bages, Pedesclaux (This has improved in recent vintages), Cantemerle (great qpr, just drank a 1996 and was very impressed), Pontet Canet.

Right Bank - Petrus obviously, VCC, L’Eglise Clinet, Canon, Canon La Gaffeliere, Valandraud, La Conseillante, Cheval Blanc and Angelus.

[A1ex_H]

1. Haut Brion - a very tough choice but such consistently wonderful wines.
2. Pichon Lalande - Montrose is a close second but I just adore PLL. Montrose is starting to get pretty close on pricing which helps.
3. Calon Segur - Palmer is absolutely wonderful and if it wasn’t so much more expensive than the super seconds outside of Leoville Las Cases, it would be my choice here. However, I never find myself buying it. If I really want an occasional splurge, I reach for a first. Otherwise, I focus on the lower tier wines.
4. Talbot but I don’t feel particularly strongly.
5. Lynch Bages - so consistent over the past 40 years (and potentially longer than that for those with deeper cellars that me).

[Jayson_Cohen]

First growth is hard to pin down (Latour doesn’t offer EP any longer) - most consistent IMHO is Lafite Rothschild
2nd. Leoville Barton or Poyferre depending on what style you prefer (Poyferre is more austere)
3rd. Giscours offers good value as well as Kirwan (Have a soft spot for Margaux that punches above its class)
4th. Beychevelle
5th. Grand Puy Lacoste seems to offer consistent drink ability, age worthiness, and QPR. Pontet - Canet also a close second.

“2nd. Leoville Barton or Poyferre depending on what style you prefer (Poyferre is more austere)”

Is that the general consensus?, I would have thought it the opposite, but I dont know poyferre well…

I believe that is backwards…Barton is austere, Poyferre a bit more fruit forward.

That probably started in 1996. But before that, Barton was more fruit forward than Poyferre.

[Nate_M]

Over time the performance of many properties has varied, and consistency over more than 20 years has not always been achieved. Add in the fact that styles have changed as critics influences have come and gone and different properties have floated my boat in different decades. However the following have given me a lot of pleasure or in recent years a lot of promise and have strong QPR.

I can’t afford the firsts.
Léoville Barton
Lagrange
Lafon Rochet
Cantemerle

This is why I asked this question. Wouldn’t have considered Lafon Rochet. However, the future/EP price looks attractive.

[Mark_Golodetz]

The exercise is a little strange as it is based on a hierarchy that was drawn up over 150 years ago that was meant to be an exercise for a specific fair and never to be the straitjacket that it later became. It has limited relevance now, as chateaux get better or worse, increase or decrease and sometimes just disappear. The fact that so many of the chateaux mentioned in this thread are values because they far exceed their place in the classification. They are also far more expensive than others in the same growth.

Lately it has become even more irrelevant, as we can focus on individual wines from a specific year. Much more useful than an outdated, often incorrect work done so many years ago, and now pretty useless. Not completely and better than nothing. And they did get the First Growths right.

Totally agree, but it is one way to see what might be considered consistent wines rather than just “the best” Bordeaux. Also, if you include the idea of QPR, I think being forced to give one per level is an exercise that would help me (and others hopefully) notice certain producers that have been overlooked because you are comparing them to “roughly” their long term counterparts. Another way I could have done this would be to ask for levels of costs of Bordeaux…but that would be tough as so much can change around a certain wine and the vintage of that wine (which you noted above). Consistency and Value. That is what I was looking for. Sorry you didn’t like the question.

I think it is more that using the 1855 classification doesn’t really add anything. You are right, it is difficult to come up with a value question, as there are multiple vintages of any wine floating around. My thought is to be more specific; for instance what Bordeaux in the $100-150 price range would you recommend, and then do it for any price that you are interested in. I would ask for suggestions of actual wines including the year.

That being said, I will offer some values. The sub $200 Vieux Chateau Certan 2014. I have bought cases of the stuff, and drink it regularly, as for some reason it has not closed down. My wine of the vintage, and and although slightly more classic than other VCCs, I would put it right up there with their best. Haut Bailly 2008. This has closed down, but it has been another wine that seemed to outperform better and more expensive wines that year. And finally, Giscours 2010 and 2016. I have a soft spot for Giscours, as the 1979 was my Eureka wine. Those wines were brilliant in the 1970s, went through a down period and have re-emerged with some stellar wines and good values. Those two in particular.

What the hell! One more Issan 2010. Good stuff and well priced.

[Nate_M]

1. Haut Brion
2. Montrose
3. Palmer is expensive but it really is in a class of its own here
   4 Beycheville
4. Lynch Bages

Today, that would be my list for quality regardless of price. Outstanding wines.

If I had to make some price adjustments, which I actually do in my own life, it could be:

1. I rarely buy them (Vieux Chateau Certain would be my equivalent, which I do buy)
2. Leoville Barton - easy decision, a Chateau I have bought since I got hooked on Bordeaux
3. Calon Segur (Ferriere, as a sleeper)
4. Brainaire Ducru
5. Grand Puy Lacoste - The QPR of the 5ths with Cantemerle as the consistent back-up)

I think the stars of the 5th Growth eclipse many of the wines of upper Growths, and likely would be 2nds today. Lynch Bages is a 2nd.

My thoughts when I read Howards list were…if these 5 every year, then bankruptcy.

[Nate_M]

The exercise is a little strange as it is based on a hierarchy that was drawn up over 150 years ago that was meant to be an exercise for a specific fair and never to be the straitjacket that it later became. It has limited relevance now, as chateaux get better or worse, increase or decrease and sometimes just disappear. The fact that so many of the chateaux mentioned in this thread are values because they far exceed their place in the classification. They are also far more expensive than others in the same growth.

Lately it has become even more irrelevant, as we can focus on individual wines from a specific year. Much more useful than an outdated, often incorrect work done so many years ago, and now pretty useless. Not completely and better than nothing. And they did get the First Growths right.

Totally agree, but it is one way to see what might be considered consistent wines rather than just “the best” Bordeaux. Also, if you include the idea of QPR, I think being forced to give one per level is an exercise that would help me (and others hopefully) notice certain producers that have been overlooked because you are comparing them to “roughly” their long term counterparts. Another way I could have done this would be to ask for levels of costs of Bordeaux…but that would be tough as so much can change around a certain wine and the vintage of that wine (which you noted above). Consistency and Value. That is what I was looking for. Sorry you didn’t like the question.

I think it is more that using the 1855 classification doesn’t really add anything. You are right, it is difficult to come up with a value question, as there are multiple vintages of any wine floating around. My thought is to be more specific; for instance what Bordeaux in the $100-150 price range would you recommend, and then do it for any price that you are interested in. I would ask for suggestions of actual wines including the year.

That being said, I will offer some values. The sub $200 Vieux Chateau Certan 2014. I have bought cases of the stuff, and drink it regularly, as for some reason it has not closed down. My wine of the vintage, and and although slightly more classic than other VCCs, I would put it right up there with their best. Haut Bailly 2008. This has closed down, but it has been another wine that seemed to outperform better and more expensive wines that year. And finally, Giscours 2010 and 2016. I have a soft spot for Giscours, as the 1979 was my Eureka wine. Those wines were brilliant in the 1970s, went through a down period and have re-emerged with some stellar wines and good values. Those two in particular.

What the hell! One more Issan 2010. Good stuff and well priced.

Appreciate the sentiment. I think you are reading me right. Maybe just ask everyone for their QPR of the last 20 years in Bordeaux that is a classified wine. Like a list of sleeper wines. The problem is that I want a notch above the traditional answers on these boards which is usually Sociando, Meyney, Tour Saint Christopher, etc. when I looked through old posts.

[Keith_Levenberg]

Haut-Brion
Pichon-Lalande
Calon-Segur
Duhart-Milon
Grand-Puy-Lacoste

[Ed_Steinway]

1. I can’t afford them for the most part but Haut Brion would be the one.
2. Pichon-Lalande
3. D’Issan – Palmer is out of my price range.
4. Branaire-Ducru
5. Grand-Puy-Lacoste

Ed

[Kris_Patten]

Totally agree, but it is one way to see what might be considered consistent wines rather than just “the best” Bordeaux. Also, if you include the idea of QPR, I think being forced to give one per level is an exercise that would help me (and others hopefully) notice certain producers that have been overlooked because you are comparing them to “roughly” their long term counterparts. Another way I could have done this would be to ask for levels of costs of Bordeaux…but that would be tough as so much can change around a certain wine and the vintage of that wine (which you noted above). Consistency and Value. That is what I was looking for. Sorry you didn’t like the question.

I think it is more that using the 1855 classification doesn’t really add anything. You are right, it is difficult to come up with a value question, as there are multiple vintages of any wine floating around. My thought is to be more specific; for instance what Bordeaux in the $100-150 price range would you recommend, and then do it for any price that you are interested in. I would ask for suggestions of actual wines including the year.

That being said, I will offer some values. The sub $200 Vieux Chateau Certan 2014. I have bought cases of the stuff, and drink it regularly, as for some reason it has not closed down. My wine of the vintage, and and although slightly more classic than other VCCs, I would put it right up there with their best. Haut Bailly 2008. This has closed down, but it has been another wine that seemed to outperform better and more expensive wines that year. And finally, Giscours 2010 and 2016. I have a soft spot for Giscours, as the 1979 was my Eureka wine. Those wines were brilliant in the 1970s, went through a down period and have re-emerged with some stellar wines and good values. Those two in particular.

What the hell! One more Issan 2010. Good stuff and well priced.

Appreciate the sentiment. I think you are reading me right. Maybe just ask everyone for their QPR of the last 20 years in Bordeaux that is a classified wine. Like a list of sleeper wines. The problem is that I want a notch above the traditional answers on these boards which is usually Sociando, Meyney, Tour Saint Christopher, etc. when I looked through old posts.

I personally think Pichon Baron is the most consistent wine that shows QPR and can give a 1st Growth experience. Montrose and Lynch Bages are close.

The ultimate left bank value is Grand Puy Lacoste.

[Kelvin_Tan]

1. 1st growth… I have some from the mid 90s to early 2000s but wont be buying any of the new release.
2. Either Cos D’Estournel, Montrose, any of the 3 Leovilles, maybe Lascombes for price
3. Calon-Segur, Lagrange or if i wanna blow some $$ Palmer
4. Duhart-Milon or Beychevelle
5. Pontet-Canet, Grand Puy Lacoste or Lynch Bages

[Arv_R]

I’ll be the contrary cat here and point out that you can generally always find the cru classe wines later on, at auction/retail/private sale. You don’t have to actually cellar, store, insure, commit capital to holding wines with 10-50k case productions just to be sure you will have a bottle to drink in the future.