Recommendations for Mosel Producers

[James_Billy]

By the way, forgetting Tom’s useless vendetta against screw caps, J. J. Christoffel is not remotely what it once was. I would no longer recommend the wines, and not because of the closure.

Which vintage did you stop liking them. 2011 was good IME.

[David_Bu3ker]

Well before that. 2002 was the last outstanding Christoffel vintage IMO.

I have not found them worth pursuing since 2013. 2012 was good, but should have been great.

[John_Glas]

Well before that. 2002 was the last outstanding Christoffel vintage IMO.

I have not found them worth pursuing since 2013. 2012 was good, but should have been great.

I usually enjoy Christoffel but agree different vintages produced different results.
2006 Joh. Jos. Christoffel Erben Ürziger Würzgarten Riesling Kabinett was one of my favorite Kabinetts from the 2000s.

[Russell_Faulkner]

Not on my radar anymore. Had some lovely older bottles from the 80s and 90s though.

[Bob_Hughes]

Very educational thread for those of us newer/less experienced with Mosel Riesling. Schloss Lieser is made by Thomas Haag, right? Any relationship to Fritz Haag (whose wines I’m not familiar with)?

[Russell_Faulkner]

Fritz is run by Thomas’ brother Oliver. Both great chaps. Father is Wilhelm, who made great wines.

[Jim_Brennan]

Otto, in fairness, I don’t think the intent was to slight you. The point is simply that many of the producers suggested lean to the dry side and (given the OP’s indication for kabinetts and spatlesen) it would have been useful to provide some additional background / guidance relative to your suggestions.

[Howard_Cooper]

Otto, in fairness, I don’t think the intent was to slight you. The point is simply that many of the producers suggested lean to the dry side and (given the OP’s indication for kabinetts and spatlesen) it would have been useful to provide some additional background / guidance relative to your suggestions.

+1

[Otto_Forsberg]

Otto, in fairness, I don’t think the intent was to slight you.

Probably not - I just found it odd when there are comments saying my suggestions are for people who prefer leaner and more austere style of wine, when I was thinking of wines mainly from the sweeter end when coming up with my suggestions (Van Volxem and Vollenweider mainly the exceptions). Just trying to explain my position here!

The point is simply that many of the producers suggested lean to the dry side and (given the OP’s indication for kabinetts and spatlesen) it would have been useful to provide some additional background / guidance relative to your suggestions.

I simply assumed if somebody prefers sweeter Rieslings and wants to check out my suggestions, they’d understand not to go specifically after the trocken wines even without guidance!

[Tom_Reddick]

By the way, forgetting Tom’s useless vendetta against screw caps, J. J. Christoffel is not remotely what it once was. I would no longer recommend the wines, and not because of the closure.

David and I will never agree on closures, but I greatly respect his take on producers and the quality of the wines. I have not had a Christoffel in many years because of the closure issue- and would have to defer to his feelings on quality and strike it from my recommend list.

A shame- I loved the pronounced blueberry cream note in his wines. Most distinctive. What happened over there David? Looking back, aside from some possible mid-2000s trade notes I might still have in my unorganized pile, I think 01/02 was the last time I had a good comprehensive tasting of the wines at release.

Tom.

[Tom_Reddick]

I think Maximin Grunhaus (von Schubert) is really underrated and I don’t really quite understand why except maybe because they’re distributed by Loosen Bros.

Otherwise, I think Schloss Lieser and Selbach-Oster are ones to try. Lauer mentioned above is quite delicious too, but it’s very different in style in my opinion. Of course, anything in the Theise portfolio and pretty much all the producers mentioned above are worth trying.

Schloss Lieser is one of the very best producers. Crisp. Mineral. Balanced and seductive. If you can find them, they are buy every vintage kinds of wines.

I would agree- only left them off the list because they can be very difficult to find in the United States. I find them a bit lighter and more floral in youth than Fritz Haag, but with the same intense underlying tension and acidity.

[Howard_Cooper]

I think Maximin Grunhaus (von Schubert) is really underrated and I don’t really quite understand why except maybe because they’re distributed by Loosen Bros.

Otherwise, I think Schloss Lieser and Selbach-Oster are ones to try. Lauer mentioned above is quite delicious too, but it’s very different in style in my opinion. Of course, anything in the Theise portfolio and pretty much all the producers mentioned above are worth trying.

Schloss Lieser is one of the very best producers. Crisp. Mineral. Balanced and seductive. If you can find them, they are buy every vintage kinds of wines.

I would agree- only left them off the list because they can be very difficult to find in the United States. I find them a bit lighter and more floral in youth than Fritz Haag, but with the same intense underlying tension and acidity.

Tom, I am surprised you have difficulty finding them. They are imported by Rudi Wiest. http://www.rudiwiest.com/estates/schloss-lieser-estate-mosel-saar-ruwer-germany/

[Tom_Reddick]

Schloss Lieser is one of the very best producers. Crisp. Mineral. Balanced and seductive. If you can find them, they are buy every vintage kinds of wines.

I would agree- only left them off the list because they can be very difficult to find in the United States. I find them a bit lighter and more floral in youth than Fritz Haag, but with the same intense underlying tension and acidity.

Tom, I am surprised you have difficulty finding them. They are imported by Rudi Wiest. http://www.rudiwiest.com/estates/schloss-lieser-estate-mosel-saar-ruwer-germany/

I ordered the Spatlesen and stickies in 2017 via my primary retail source (which buys through Rudi), and so fingers crossed- order not yet confirmed. Prior to that, never saw them in Texas and only ever got them on occasion from Crush. Could just be a case of them selling through quickly where distributed.

Texas is a weird place for Riesling. Some producers we get in ridiculous quantities, and some we hardly see at all- even across the same importer.

[Howard_Cooper]

I would agree- only left them off the list because they can be very difficult to find in the United States. I find them a bit lighter and more floral in youth than Fritz Haag, but with the same intense underlying tension and acidity.

Tom, I am surprised you have difficulty finding them. They are imported by Rudi Wiest. http://www.rudiwiest.com/estates/schloss-lieser-estate-mosel-saar-ruwer-germany/

I ordered the Spatlesen and stickies in 2017 via my primary retail source (which buys through Rudi), and so fingers crossed- order not yet confirmed. Prior to that, never saw them in Texas and only ever got them on occasion from Crush. Could just be a case of them selling through quickly where distributed.

Texas is a weird place for Riesling. Some producers we get in ridiculous quantities, and some we hardly see at all- even across the same importer.

https://bassins.com/search_results.php

[Maxwell_A]

Taken in sum, this thread so far lists just about every Mosel producer I see with any regularity in the US marketplace.

For my part, Willi Schaefer, Fritz Haag, JJ Prum and Von Schubert are the four Mosel producers I most closely follow, and I think it is safe to say I have a more rabid passion for the Mosel than any other wine region in the world- even Burgundy.

Before getting into specifics- let me please offer one piece of advice that I learned the hard way, and which many- if not most- people never learn. I won’t open these wines with certain tasting groups anymore over this issue. That advice is simply to give the wines a LOT of airing. When tasting young wines- especially the Auction bottlings or anything Auslese and above- double decanting and leaving the bottle open overnight is generally a must. You should try the wine right at opening and for a few hours after- but you really should save at least half the bottle for the following day. And if you drink more than a glass or so, you can recork the bottle for the overnight rest period. This is not as essential for Kabinetts and Spatlesen in most vintages- but it still can be a useful exercise.

Similar goes for older wines for that matter. If I am serving older wines in the evening, I will generally open the bottles in the morning, double decant and then assess whether to recork or not.

I say this because I know people with large Riesling collections who absolutely insist on pop 'n pour at tastings, and the wines are consumed long before they even have a chance to show their best. It is maddening.

On specifics- your timing is excellent because we have had several good vintages in a row. 2015 and 2017 are epic vintages with long term potential- but don’t miss out on the 2016s. They are nicely showy but not abnormal like 2003 was- for example, have good acidities and are showing a lot of their character young. It is a perfect vintage to get started with because these wines will show well the first 1-2 hours out of the bottle for the most part (I have not had the Prums yet- but have been advised they are unusually reluctant- which is the exception to the rule in 2016)- but I would still advise saving some overnight.

As for producers- I would advise getting your hands on a Kabinett and/or Spatlese from as many of the producers listed in the various posts as you can. 2016s should be widely available and not terribly expensive- I would expect under $40 for either a Kab or Spat from just about everyone except Egon Muller where $100ish is the new entry point (and for Kabinett only.)

If you want to narrow it down some, I would suggest you go for the following to cover a good range of styles while sticking to wines that are, and should be in future, readily available in the United States,

Peter Lauer
Willi Schaefer
Von Schubert
Fritz Haag
JJ Prum (only if you want to do side by side comparisons since you already have tried the wines)
AJ Adam
Zilliken
Selbach-Oster
Christoffel

Just in case it matters to you (it matters to me a great deal as I am a traditionalist on the manner of closures and refuse to cellar wines that do not have corks), be aware that a couple of these producers (the last 2) are bottling many of their wines- including Kabinett and Spatlese- in screwcap. You can find plenty of long threads on the subject here if you wish to dive in- but do be aware that screwcaps have come into wider use with the more age-worthy German wines.

If you do not mind spending $135 on a single bottle- Dee Vine Wines in San Francisco currently has a large stash of the 2005 Willi Schaefer Graacher Domprobst Riesling Spatlese Auction. The Auctions are held annually and certain Mosel producers will present special bottlings of their finest for the auction. Schaefer usually does 1 Spatlese and sells between 400 and 600 bottles. It does not always work out so in the end- but generally these are the best of the best, and naturally quite rare. The 2005 Schaefer is just entering maturity now and is an absolutely magical bottle of wine. If you want to see the kind of outcome we Mosel lovers dream of- this is the best option I know of in the current marketplace with impeccable provenance.

Commenting on the producers- my preferences are based on the wines that, with cellar age, tend to have a bit more backbone and zest to them- courtesy of the acids. They can still be quite ethereal in their way- certainly the case with Prum and Schaefer- but they always have a bit of fire to them as well, which is all the more wonderful when expressed in a sort of celestial and effortless way.

Lauer, Selbach and Molitor do not really have that I think- I expect them to be more like Nahe wines with time. Still pretty, but lacking that earthy and citrus acid base. Christoffel I have always loved, but I don’t do screwcaps- period. YMMV. AJ Adam wines are well made, and quite distinctive with pineapple and sometimes coconut notes, but as with Schafer-Frohlich in the Nahe I find them too sweet and heavy for my personal tastes anymore. Even by modern standards, their Spatlesen are essentially Auslesen to my palate.

The wines of Egon Muller can be incredible- the 1999 Spatlese Auction remains one of the greatest wines I have ever tasted. And in many respects, if one were forced to create a top 10 list- in order- of the Mosel producers, Muller belongs at the top of that list. But the wines have become too freakishly expensive for me, and so I do not cellar or drink them anymore. I would also note that the real Muller sweet spot- so to speak- is Auslese level and above, where I tend to focus on Spatlese. So if you prefer the stickies, then the Muller premium may well be worth it.

Thanks for the very informative post, Tom. Do you have any strong preferences on when you drink the wines from the 4 producers you most closely follow? In terms of how long after the vintage (I know this depends on the vintage too) for the different pradikat levels. Where do you think the “sweet spots” are for drinking some of these wines? I know this is subjective but I’m interested in hearing your preferences.

[d_sharp]

Hi Tom and David, regarding JJC the last real vintage for me was 2000. 2001 and 2002 were good, but by then Monchoff had purchased the estate. Tom, Lieser’s 2017 GKA’s are stunning.
Cheers,
Dale

[David_Bu3ker]

2001 at JJC still had full involvement from Hans-Leo.

[Tom_Reddick]

Thanks for the very informative post, Tom. Do you have any strong preferences on when you drink the wines from the 4 producers you most closely follow? In terms of how long after the vintage (I know this depends on the vintage too) for the different pradikat levels. Where do you think the “sweet spots” are for drinking some of these wines? I know this is subjective but I’m interested in hearing your preferences.

Honestly- I am still experimenting with this. 2007 was the first vintage where I really got into German wines and also purchased at the auctions (though in my early wine days I enjoyed a lot of 1990s Muller-Catoir and Von Schubert wines- but in their youth). I have done some back-filling (very carefully since provenance is tricky with older German wines as many sat on retail shelves for a long time back then), but 2001 is about as far back as I go with very few exceptions.

Very generally I am finding that 10-12 years is a good general barometer for Spatlesen, and a bit longer for Auction Spatlesen from the bigger vintages.

For Auslesen and GK Auslesen, right now I am thinking 15-20 years, and again a bit longer for the Auction wines in the greater vintages. In 2017 I opened a half bottle of 2008 Prum Graacher-Himmelreich Auslese GK Auction, and while it was beautiful, it took hours to really start building and was still on its way up when we finished the half bottle.

That is another point- I have found that unlike with most other wines, when Mosel Rieslings are shut down they are often just very faint- almost watery at times. And then the longer they are open- the more they come out of their shell. It is a very odd thing. With a Bordeaux or Burgundy that is shut down, usually the full volume is there- but the wine is closed. And with airing it may or may not come out. With Riesling, you see nothing. A good Burgundy comparison would be Bonnes-Mares which can seem almost like a rose during its dumb phase, only to emerge years later with an explosion of aromatics and lacey fruit that was barely hinted at 5 years prior.

Eiswein are usually good from day 1 in my experience, and I have found they do not have the staying power of BA or TBA. Not usually anyway. On the rare occasion I buy Eiswein, I do so planning to drink them by the age of 25 or so.

BA and TBA seem like they can last forever- but are always approachable in some measure. I have never had one that was shut down. Sure, the full degree of future nuance is in hiding, but always I have found them jammy and decadent at all ages.

As for the 4 producers I noted as personal favorites- again still finding my way, but in the next year or two I plan to start testing out the Schaefer and Von Schubert 2007s and 2008s first, waiting a bit on Fritz Haag, and even longer on JJ Prum. Prum I think most definitely, on average, will take the longest to reach maturity, and I am finding Schaefer the most forgiving of being opened a bit too soon.

But even that is not a perfect strategy. Last spring I opened a 2001 Fritz Haag Brauneberger Juffer-Sonnenuhr Riesling Auslese Goldkapsel #12, and while it was performing nicely, I thought it needed a bit more time. Around the same time I had the Spatlese Auction and thought much the same. But then a few months ago I opened the Auslese GK #9 (the version that tends to have less botrytis but otherwise just as ageworthy usually), and it was completely mature- and from a vintage where some Kabinetts are still not quite ready. Still, it was not anywhere near decline, so my general guidelines above would have still served me well if I had held the #9 for a couple more years.

[Tom_Reddick]

Hi Tom and David, regarding JJC the last real vintage for me was 2000. 2001 and 2002 were good, but by then Monchoff had purchased the estate. Tom, Lieser’s 2017 GKA’s are stunning.
Cheers,
Dale

Thank you Dale and David- appreciate the feedback.

Thanks also for good word on the 2017 Schloss Lieser GKAs. I ordered 6 packs of each and hoping they come. Kind of a one-shot deal for me- 2017 is the last vintage for me in Germany when it comes to going outside of my usual fare.

[DanielP]

I ordered 6 packs of each and hoping they come. Kind of a one-shot deal for me- 2017 is the last vintage for me in Germany when it comes to going outside of my usual fare.

Until Schloss Lieser becomes your usual fare