Red Burgundy with Age - Decanting and Temperature Debate

WINE TALK
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No shortage of conflicting opinions on best practices when it comes to how to coax the best showing out of these precious reds. Compounding the difficulty is many of my Burg friends and I I have not been collecting that long, so in order to have ready-to-go wine, most of what we consume are grey market, purchased from Benchmark, KL, Envoyer, etc, often from Auction. I have been blaming provenance for some subpar showings and as a result I have been leaning towards transitioning to purchasing younger wines (meaning 2002+ for GCs, even younger for 1’er.) Part of me thinks even that is too old

However, perhaps I am shortsighted about this and I really do not want to have to drink unresolved tannins if I can find another way. I am hypothesizing that some of the bad showings, often typified by some combination of overly tannic, too sour, lack of primary fruit might be exacerbated by bad serving choices.

For example, how important is letting the bottle sit upright for a few days (or longer) before opening, especially if it was a recent purchase? We often skip this step.

Some say decanting red burgs, unless very young, is heresy. So we must examine the reasons why to decant. More oxygen smooths tannins, allows the fruit to be more expressive. Some say the sediment needs to be removed as it adds bitterness (and skipping the upright step does not help matters). However, if we decant too long (however long “too long” is,) there is a risk of not experiencing the freshness and missing out of the evolution of primary to tertiary in the glass. Ok so is Slow’oxing a compromise?

And then there is temperature. We mostly open up these burgs in restaurants, often 4-6++ per dinner. No one is keeping the dining room at 65 or lower, and it is kind of hard to regulate chilling them perfectly, so more than likely they are over 70 degrees by the time we are actually drinking them. Especially if they have been sitting in a decanter for 1-3 hours. That could be muting the freshness as well.

What does the hive mind recommend for TLC for GCs or good 1’er for 5, 10, 20, 30 years of age? Obviously. there are vintage, vineyard and producer outliers, but does anyone have tried and true rules of thumb?

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Hi Andrea,
I prefer to not decant red Burgs as I like to see them develop in the glass and evolve.
Utilising large Riedel Pinot Noir stems with large surface area allows the wine to breathe just fine I have found.
For very old Burgs I like to open an hour or two before serving and leave uncorked in the bottle for a slow oxygenation.
Cheers,
Kent

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Hi Andrea,
I can’t point to tried-and-true anything regarding serving mature Burg but in my experience:

  • I have given up trying to bring any aged Burg to a restaurant. The jostling of the bottle on the way there stirs up too much sediment most times. The room is never the right temperature as you noted. Etc.
  • although standing the bottle up for several days is preferable, I usually give it a day upright at home and go for the 80/20 solution. I usually can’t plan ahead any better.
  • I find ambient temperature is crucial. 70 degrees F is too hot. I don’t even want a RhĂ´ne that warm. Chilling an old wine, however gently, in a 70 degree room is not the same as serving it in the proper ambient temperature to begin with. Even young wines can perform radically differently under small temperature changes.
  • I don’t decant, not because it’s wrong (it’s probably not!) but just because I don’t come from a tradition of decanting burg. Slow O I find usually ineffective — except for burg and (with a lot more time , usually) Barolo. This may have less to do with science and more do do with “ well, that’s the way Dad did it”.
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Not just for Burg but any old wine neds time to settle down after real transit (shipping) and much less so for younger wines. Since these are north of 20 years old, I would hold before opening a couple days to a full week in an upright position (can do a day but age/how fine the tannins are makes a difference). With car rides there tends to be much less jostle and can always pour from bottle through fine grain strainer if necessary.

Can’t comment on the rest as the other variables are too much out of my control or desire to become scientific about.

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Probably not. That sounds like classic over the hill wine. Can you provide some specific examples of wines you’ve had recently that haven’t shown to your liking?

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I use a wire basket instead of standing up. Comes out of the cellar on its side, stays on it’s side in the basket, and is poured off the sediment without disturbing anything. No prior planning required, and it’s better to just not disturb the sediment at all instead of standing up and waiting.

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Always an easy transport and tool however he asked about the wines ordered and opened shortly upon arrival.

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Standing upright for at least a day is recommended.
I open all bottles several hours before service when possible. I decide on decanting 15-20 min. before drinking, after tasting a sip - or if I don t want to lose the last inch with sediment.
Bottles without opening in advance ( when there is not enough time) usually are less expressive imo

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There could be books written about this topic Andrea but they would only contain opinions not objective evidence because it’s hard to gather and we drink wine for subjective pleasure. Burgundy lovers are of course a diverse and passionate bunch united in their love of the wines but steadfastly diverse in their opinions, rather like the vignerons.

Having said that I’m in the camp of long aging in a cool cellar being the key to unlocking Burgundian magic. Tonight we opened a 95 d’Angerville Taillepieds to share over dinner. It opened slowly to reveal a deep line of fine complex red fruits, a lovely mineral finish and a pervasive spiciness that lifted into something special. It was slow oxed after opening for a couple of hours and half the bottle decanted into a 375ml bottle for tomorrow night. Then it will almost certainly reveal a bit more than tonight. Tonight I poured into large Riedel burgundy glasses and we watched the wine unfurl. 7 years ago it was shut down hard and yet now as it comes to maturity the fruit is vigorous and well defined. My wife called it as a 2002 on that basis.

In our wine group we will decant 15-20 year old grand crus of distinction and leave them to air for a couple of hours - we are never disappointed and indeed the best sip will often be the last after a couple of extra hours in the glass.

Overall with 40 years of burgundy experience I would regard well matured Burgundy as robust when well treated and generally agnostic to many of our special rituals other than finding a way that airs the wine gently on opening and allows the wines to develop in the glass. Room temperature is important and in our sub tropical climate down-under a vigorously cooled room to around 22C is ideal.

I do suspect the wines you describe are either poorly cellared particularly with light and heat or perhaps just closed down hard. Enjoy your adventures but be patient, cellar carefully and don’t underestimate the aging capacity of Pinot Noir under good cork !

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When its a special gathering or a special bottle, I’ve come around to the practice of decanting. In my hands and my bottles, it does seem to help the wines open up. I have not found Burgs to as delicate and fragile as I used to think, so I do plan ahead to stand up bottles, but I don’t obsess about a little transport.

If at home, I pour gently into decanter then let it breathe 1-2 hours.

If I am going out to a tasting, an hour or two in advance I decant, then pour the wine back into the bottle with a funnel, recork and take the bottle with me later.

I do this for Burgs as “young” as 15 if its a special bottle.

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Ideal way of handling for restaurant service in my view:

  • Place bottle in cradle in cellar several days before before service
  • Open bottle a few hours before drinking and leave in the cradle the whole time
  • If in warm climate, or restaurant is far away, or you’ll be drinking late at the restaurant place cradle/bottle in fridge for 20 - 30 minutes to drop temperature a few degrees
  • Bring to restaurant in cradle and carefully pour. If you’re concerned temp is rising at restaurant ask if they can bring the cradle to their cellar.

Of course I don’t always do this. Bringing your own cradle to a restaurant may not always be kosher. Also don’t open bottles that have recently been shipped. As tempting as it is to try that bottle you just bought, if it has 20, 30, 40 years of age it needs a few weeks to settle and let the sediment fall.

Don’t give up. The magic of Burgundy is when it is on. You might need to go through a dozen bad/mediocre bottles to get to that really good one, but when you do it’s worth it. Of course provenance is everything. I recently bought a few bottles at auction where the consigner was clearly the original purchaser and long time collector. All the fills looked great and the color looked good. Thus far everything I’ve opened has shown as well as I could hope. I really like older wine and have had great showings from bottles from 1979, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1985. So I wouldn’t totally give up hope on older wines and entirely move to younger ones.

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Which specific producers/wines have you been opening?

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Producer is the key to good burgundy. Inconsistent results very well could either mean inconsistent producers or poor storage before you got the wine.

I decant older Burgundy to separate out the sediment. I don’t decant young Burgundies. I find it dangerous to open Burgundies too far in advance.

I have been drinking 1999s, 2001s and 2002s a lot lately. Wines are drinking great. [unfortunately, I finished my 2000s a long time ago.]. Stay away from 2004s, 2005s are still way too young. 2007s are drinking really well.

I bring Burgundies to restaurants and to friends’ houses all the time. I stand bottles up a few days in advance and then try to keep wines upright during travel. Wines turn out great.

Learn producers.

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I find my 5th to 9th glass of any evening to be universally delightful!

Jokes aside, and not limited to Burgundy… if I think or know a wine has fine sediments, I stand it up for several days prior to opening. And when I open, I pour very slowly into a decanter until I see the sediment. Pour remainder into a glass, rinse bottle, and return the good stuff to the bottle. Generally do this an hour or two ahead of tasting and it works great.

Trying any part of the double decanted wine vs the glass with the fine sediments has convinced me that this is the way to go!

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It’s a little hard to not have this devolve into yet another decanting discussion. basically, you have to figure out amongst the options what works the best for you, and stick with it/learn the nuances. Personally, I’m not sure that it makes as much difference as we think it does. It’s pretty hard to destroy a really good wine by putting it in a decanter, or not putting it in a decanter. (I’m a double decanter for sediment and air, BTW.) The biggest mistake is to drink it quickly without giving it enough time/air. Most good Burgundies back into the 90’s and even before need/benefit from plenty of air. I can’t think of one in recent memory that ‘fell apart’ with air.

With regard to your experience so far, I just wonder if you have chosen the right wines. Backfilling raises issues of provenance, and many of the wines that are available are there because someone else didn’t want them/like them. People culling their cellars and getting rid of wines through Envoyer and other outlets are getting rid of wines they don’t care about, or have tried and have been disappointed by.

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A few of you have expressed interest in what we are drinking. First, Producer, Producer, Producer. From there, vintages, vineyards, scores, not necessarilly in that order, Typically not at the level of DRC/Leroy/Roumier or whatnot, but these are fine Ponsot, Dujac, Jadot, Faiveley, Mugnier, Clos de Tart, Lemoine, etc. One unscientific hypothesis I have is that I seem to be having an easier time with wines where the winemaker is more heavy-handed with the oak, such as Laurent. I suspect this style is more forgiving when it comes to sediment or other sources of unexpected bitterness. I could (and perhaps should) start a different thread on grey market dos and don’ts, but suffice to say we all do our best with curating the best we can from a single collector that stored it well. The whole reason for this thread is I acknowledge that younger wines pose less of a risk because they perhaps do not have as many battle scars. Or not, hard to say…I appreciate all the thoughts here and look forward to the ongoing discussion around best practices.

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It rather depends on the vintages/cuvees, etc. Ponsot’s wines are famously variable (especially the Chappelle and the Griotte), the wines made before Erwan took over at Faiveley are notoriously divisive (a wag once remarked that if you poured those wines into a bottle of St. Estephe no one would notice), Jadot can take forever to come around and can be best in off vintages (like 1997), Clos de Tart is also somewhat divisive prior to its recent acquisition and there’s a big step up in quality around 2000 from Mugnier.
And this is, of course, before getting into vintages :wink:

What I really mean is that it’s a bit of an art rather than a science. I suspect some of what you’re experience is questionable storage, some questionable vintages and possibly bad luck. For example, if I was asked what producers from 2000-2010 I would buy to ensure a good experience, from that list I would only suggest Mugnier (and the 2009 Faiveleys - a great vintage for Erwan). But, I also have a fairly reasonable amount of painful experience :stuck_out_tongue:
But, of course, that’s my palate - that’s how my experience was formed.

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for many other wines (rhone, bdx, tuscan, piedmont) i find there are many rule of thumbs that work well.

for Burgs, i find it’s very mixed… depends on producer largely, but even within a producer’s line, certain btllings benefit from different decant treatment… General statements of

  • i don’t ever decant xxx burgs
  • i always decant xxx burgs
    just doesn’t apply universally.

Oh, also, sediment sucks, and DDing it out is important… and slow ox does virtually nothing except blowing off some initial funk (but does nothing in terms of aerating the wine).

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How have you come to arrive at what decanting works for specific producers and specific bottlings of a given producer?

I’m sure some of it is trial and error and experience, but you must have some guidelines or rules of thumb. You can’t have tried long decant v short decant v no decant for every type of Burg you drink.

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Not entirely, John. Many collectors I know who sell their wines are stunned by the price escalation over the last few years (2023 excepted) and just don’t value some of their high end wines the same as the burgundy market values them. Given that, a logical response is to sell some of their collection.

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