Richebourg and Richebourg sous Veroilles

[Peter_Chiu]

No, Jean Gros’ wines were made by Michel Gros, and A F Gros’ (sister of Michel) is made by her husband Francois Parent, Rb from 1996 onwards.

Robert - you are right that Michel Gros, fresh from finishing school in 1975, took over the Gros family and also the wine maker for Domaine Jean Gros - until the Domaine Jean was split into 3 in 1995. You are also right that A.F. Gros was made by Anne-Francoiss Gros’ husband Mr. Francois Parent …starting in vintage 1996.

I checked my wine inventory. I own many bottles of Richebourg by A.F. Gros vintage 1996 but I could remember if there was any difference between A.F. Gros and by Domaine Jean Gros or not. It was also the last time I bought Richebourg from Gros family.

[Gaudissabois_Johan]

Friends,

I had the 1995 RICHEBOURG by Jean Gros years ago and it was totally disappointing…Perhaps I drank it too soon…Anne Gros’ version was much better. So was the RICHEBOURG made by ETIENNE GRIVOT. The version made by DRC was wonderful last year (2020) but you had to give it that many years. Drunk in 2005 it did not sing at all.

SINCERELY JOHAN

[Josh_Najjar]

Only Richebourg I ever had is Jean Gros 1987 (not a great vintage) a year or 2 ago… An absolutely fabulous wine! (opened by a friend…). Have 5 bottles locked away (Grivot 2009, 2010 2011).

Funny you said that. A 1987 Jean Gros Richebourg, that I drank not long after release, may be the greatest Burgundy I’ve ever tasted, and I say this after 35 years of drinking great Burgundies.

[Peter_Chiu]

Dear Berserkers:

Some years ago, during my early wine life and when I was visiting Burgundy, I stopped in the village of Gervey. I over heard the following conversation between two vigorons there : Oh…no…what are you talking about ? Richebourg is too rich; RC is too perfect; LT is too exotic; Musigny is too farfume; and RStV…is too soft and well …only our beloved Chambertin is a complete wine.

[Peter_Chiu]

Only Richebourg I ever had is Jean Gros 1987 (not a great vintage) a year or 2 ago… An absolutely fabulous wine! (opened by a friend…). Have 5 bottles locked away (Grivot 2009, 2010 2011).

Funny you said that. A 1997 Jean Gros Richebourg, that I drank not long after release, may be the greatest Burgundy I’ve ever tasted, and I say this after 35 years of drinking great Burgundies.

Josh…with your long long experience and reading many of your TNs… I have no doubt of your statement.

Here are some important data : the wine was from a not so great vintage year ( 1997 ) and the wine was young when you enjoyed it ( not long after release ). So basically…there is no great wine only bottle. There is no sure guarantee of anything…with Burgundy wines in general.

The more I drunk burgundy…the more I realize QPR is my first most important fact of purchasing red burgundy for enjoyment.

[billnanson]

Only Richebourg I ever had is Jean Gros 1987 (not a great vintage) a year or 2 ago… An absolutely fabulous wine! (opened by a friend…). Have 5 bottles locked away (Grivot 2009, 2010 2011).

Funny you said that. A 1997 Jean Gros Richebourg, that I drank not long after release, may be the greatest Burgundy I’ve ever tasted, and I say this after 35 years of drinking great Burgundies.

Josh…with your long long experience and reading many of your TNs… I have no doubt of your statement.

Here are some important data : the wine was from a not so great vintage year ( 1997 ) and the wine was young when you enjoyed it ( not long after release ). So basically…there is no great wine only bottle. There is no sure guarantee of anything…with Burgundy wines in general.

The more I drunk burgundy…the more I realize QPR is my first most important fact of purchasing red burgundy for enjoyment.

LOL - and the worst Richebourg I ever tasted was also a 97 - it was just as bad 5 years later - from another ‘Jean’ or maybe I should say an Etienne…
Yet the 1996, last year, was great, great, great…

[Robert_Sand]

Only Richebourg I ever had is Jean Gros 1987 (not a great vintage) a year or 2 ago… An absolutely fabulous wine! (opened by a friend…). Have 5 bottles locked away (Grivot 2009, 2010 2011).

Funny you said that. A 1997 Jean Gros Richebourg, that I drank not long after release, may be the greatest Burgundy I’ve ever tasted, and I say this after 35 years of drinking great Burgundies.

I wonder: 1997 Jean GROS Richebourg? There isn´t any.
Was it a typo - and you meant 1987? (BTW: a great wine, not only for the vintage)

The Jean Gros Richebourg parcel went to A.F.Gros in 1996 (in order to keep the 1er Cru Clos des Reas a monopole) - the domaine Jean Gros ceased to exist after 1995, it was Michel Gros afterwards, but there was no Richebourg anymore.

[Gaudissabois_Johan]

Friends,

I once had the 87 MONGEARD-MUGNERET RICHEBOURG (and I had many bottles off it-all wonderful) and it was truly great and probably the best I had from this not-so-consistent domaine. Was 87 really not good? Better than the much applauded 88 chez MONGEARD…
SINCERELY JOHAN

[Howard_Cooper]

Dear Michael,

Thank you for answering once again. And I did read the article written by Steen. I am a subscriber to WINEHOG. He answers the issue whether the two are equal quality wise. But based on what? As I remember it Steen has not that much experience in tasting RICHEBOURGS. Not in the same way Clive Coates had, or Sarah Marsh, or Meadows or for that matter R Parker. And they never touched the issue. Still, much obliged for reminding me of the fact that STEEN did try. His conclusion : not a significant difference quality wise.

SINCERELY JOHAN

Does anyone with holdings in both bottle them separately? If not, I have to assume that they don’t believe there are significant enough differences.

[Gaudissabois_Johan]

Dear Howard,

You could be right. However, who has decent enough holdings in both to even consider bottling them separately??? HN, Grivot, Liger Belair, Mongeard, DRC, LEROY all have RICHEBOURG proper if I am not misstaken whereas the GROS family has the lion’s share all in VEROILLES. Still, a very interesting way of looking at it.

[A_Songeur]

Jean Gros Rchebourg 1987 was stellar

[Peter_Chiu]

Dear Howard,

You could be right. However, who has decent enough holdings in both to even consider bottling them separately??? HN, Grivot, Liger Belair, Mongeard, DRC, LEROY all have RICHEBOURG proper if I am not misstaken whereas the GROS family has the lion’s share all in VEROILLES. Still, a very interesting way of looking at it.

I just took a close look at the maps in Michael’s link. You are right. Gros family owns the lion share in Veroilles. The other are : Bichot, DRC, Cmauzet ( who also owns a very, very tiny parcel in the Richebourg-proper. DRC also owns lion share in Richebourg-proper. Logically guessing, DRC could only be the one who could elerage them separately. Leory’s 2 parcels are all in the Richebourg-proper.

While a comparative tasting of bottles of wine, if possible, from the Richebourg-proper and veroilles from the same Domaine and same vintage year - there are still variable, for example vine-age.

[Gaudissabois_Johan]

Friends,

Another reason for not bottling Richebourg and Veroilles separately may be the fact that RICHEBOURG has built up an enormous reputation as a householdname. A bottle labelled “VEROILLES (s)ou(s) RICHEBOURG” would not fetch the same price. So this would not be even considered. Feel free to disagree…
SINCERELY JOHAN

[MChang]

Dear Howard,

You could be right. However, who has decent enough holdings in both to even consider bottling them separately??? HN, Grivot, Liger Belair, Mongeard, DRC, LEROY all have RICHEBOURG proper if I am not misstaken whereas the GROS family has the lion’s share all in VEROILLES. Still, a very interesting way of looking at it.

You are mistaken. DRC has the largest holdings in both richebourg and Veroilles.

[TGigante]

Dear Howard,

You could be right. However, who has decent enough holdings in both to even consider bottling them separately??? HN, Grivot, Liger Belair, Mongeard, DRC, LEROY all have RICHEBOURG proper if I am not misstaken whereas the GROS family has the lion’s share all in VEROILLES. Still, a very interesting way of looking at it.

You are mistaken. DRC has the largest holdings in both richebourg and Veroilles.

Michael - on your link with the plot map, it looks like the 3 Gros properties combined in Veroilles exceed the size of DRC in Veroilles. Optical illusion?

[MChang]

It could be but the largest single holder in both properties is DRC.

[Josh_Najjar]

Only Richebourg I ever had is Jean Gros 1987 (not a great vintage) a year or 2 ago… An absolutely fabulous wine! (opened by a friend…). Have 5 bottles locked away (Grivot 2009, 2010 2011).

Funny you said that. A 1997 Jean Gros Richebourg, that I drank not long after release, may be the greatest Burgundy I’ve ever tasted, and I say this after 35 years of drinking great Burgundies.

Josh…with your long long experience and reading many of your TNs… I have no doubt of your statement.

Here are some important data : the wine was from a not so great vintage year ( 1997 ) and the wine was young when you enjoyed it ( not long after release ). So basically…there is no great wine only bottle. There is no sure guarantee of anything…with Burgundy wines in general.

The more I drunk burgundy…the more I realize QPR is my first most important fact of purchasing red burgundy for enjoyment.

Hi Peter,

Sorry, that was a typo. I meant 1987 J Gros - Richebourg ! Still, your comments ring true…

[Peter_Chiu]

Josh…thanks for the clarification and your agreement …

[A_Songeur]

I posted about this wine on another wine geeks site and Claude Kolm confirmed Richebourg 1987 was already fabulous when much younger and he was happy it was apparently still performing… so this wine was surely a success…

[Gaudissabois_Johan]

Friends,

I remember that the great Robert Parker was equally excited about the 87 Jean Gros RICHEBOURG. He maybe exaggerated a bit when he preferred the whole vintage to the much hyped 88 vintage but in many cases he was right. (see the MONGEARD-MUGNERET RICHEBOURg as wel…). When he got it right, we ought to give him his dues…Ain’t that right?