This is a fascinating thread for me. I am still trying to get a better sense of how Oak influences the wines I enjoy most, both early on and later.
What were the %new Oak in older vintages of Monte Bello? Have had great bottles recently of 2000, 1998, 1991 and 1988. None felt “oaky” to me in the sense of those chocolate/vanilla notes I feel in younger Napa wines nor the wood spice/cedar/sauna tones I get from young rhones.
Mel, thanks for posting.
Very interesting. I love the '13 Estate and think that there’s a ton of fruit to compensate for the increased use of oak. I didn’t bother to read the details about the '14 when my “club samples” arrived a couple of months ago, but I’m very surprised by the dramatic increase in the new oak used…add to that Mel’s comments about a different source for the oak…it looks like it’s time to do a little Ridge Estate tasting this weekend. Maybe the '12-14 would be a fun comparison.
Been a Ridge fan for 25 years or so, but just cannot live with the oak anymore. I’ll guess it is not the winemaking and it is my evolving dislike of oak influence. My tastes have changed. Ridge consistently makes great (but oaky) wines. I don’t like the oak and I am no longer a buyer. It’s OK, they will do fine without me. YMMV. ![[cheers.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/0ff9bfcdb0964982cd3240b6159868fbdf215b1a.gif "cheers"){kind=small}
I’ve always associated dill with Taransaud barrels. And there is a big difference between “new oak” (i.e. first use) barrels and barrels that have been used previously in terms of how much they influence wines. People often use “oak” indiscriminately, which, to me, is unfortunate.
- What is the relationship between air-drying and toasting?
Most people –including veteran winemakers – don’t understand how air-drying of the stave wood impacts the perception of toastiness in wine. Years ago I arranged an experiment at a famous winery, whose name is being withheld in the interest of national security.
We arranged for barrels of three toast levels and three air-drying periods to be made.
When we eventually tasted the wine in these barrels we noted that the longer the wood was dried, the less toasty the wine appeared, regardless of toast level. As a general rule it can be summarized that:
—the longer the wood is dried the more subtle the flavor and the more supple the texture will be… hence the saying the more you pay (for the longer drying), the less you get
—very short air drying periods give flavors on the smoked meat side of life with more astringency
This is evidence gathered from an informal experiment. To do an experiment on this subject for a formal study would cost over $100,000.When winemakers ask us for suggestions as to barrel type we always turn the question around?? How long are you keeping the wine in barrel?? What percentage of new barrels are you using?? A long time in barrel combined with a high percentage of new oak calls for well-seasoned wood.
I will be in Napa in a month and a half for a couple of days and plan to go to Ridge’s Lytton Springs winery to taste. I will be thinking about this thread when I taste there. The last time I tasted there, I had their 2011 Cabs and really liked them The Montebello was fabulous. I know that this is supposed to be a very weak vintage, but I really loved the wines.
Now I look at Robert’s numbers and wonder if I had been responding to the lack of new oak - although I don’t know the oak on the Montebello or the Klein, which I really liked a lot.
They seem to really jump around on new oak percentages according to Robert’s figures. 2013 just seems to be a return to 2008, but 2014 seems to be an outlier. Any idea as to why?
Any idea on oak percentages of classic Ridge vintages like 1984, 1985, 1991, 1996, etc.
Ridge’s web site includes “Winemaking” notes for Monte Bello starting in 1990. I didn’t look at every vintage, but almost all mention using entirely new American oak, with perhaps an experimental sample of French oak.
The notes for 1990 seem to indicate a shift in amount of new oak compared to previous vintages.
“Over eighty percent of the barrels were new, and the rest had been used for ten months with the ’89 Monte Bello. With this greater-than-usual amount of new and near-new wood, we monitored carefully to avoid over-oaking …”
The additional, interesting question posted by Mel and his website, is the length of air-drying of the staves versus toast. I do not think that data is on the Ridge website.
Howard, as I’ve gone back to try some prior vintages, the 2011 is aligning better with my palate, not just because of less oak, but also leaner in profile with a wider range of reds and a hint of green. Seems like it would be your vintage as well. I remember DZ going nuts over the 2011 MB.
Is it possible that this is a product of their need to balance out their barrels for MB to have enough new, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th year and so on?
Not following. MB tends to use only 100% new, suggesting that all the 1-year barrels can be used for their other wines. Cool website, as they give you that additional layer of data, telling you the percentage of 1, 2, 3, etc., year old barrels used in the mix.
This thread is a bit of a surprise to me, as I honestly find the oak component in Monte Bello better integrated in today’s young wines than in wines such as the lovely 1991 Monte Bello, or any of the Monte Bellos of the 1980s. After all, back in the day people used to talk about ‘Draper perfume’, referring to Ridge’s strong oak signature (in the same way, I’d argue, that people talk about Mouton’s putative exotic spice). But the vanillin and dill-like elements that one finds in those older vintages are much less prominent in recent releases. And I’ve always assumed that was a consequence of better barrels.
To me, the fact that Eric mentions ‘toasty oak’ in his tasting note is simply an example of commendable candor. Just-bottled Bordeaux crus classés smell that way too, though winemakers and critics may not chose to be so explicit about it.
As for there being more oak on the Estate Cab, perhaps that’s just a function of Monte Bello lots ending up in the blend? But I’m just speculating. Next time I see Eric I’ll ask.
William - this thread is really more a commentary, at least as I framed it, about the Estate Cab and Zins. The last three MBs that I have had, all over 10 years of age, carried the oak well enough, but still pretty clearly the signature of American oak. I liked those wines a lot.
I’ve often wondered about the reasons a winemaker uses new oak. The only reason that makes sense is that they must feel the end product is “better” or appeals to a larger group in some way. Why incur the cost of new oak, if you can use older barrels and save money? I understand the need to buy some new barrels each year.
I wish I could sample a wine with varying oak regimens to understand it better. I prefer less noticeable woodsy, vanilla, caramel and coconut flavors in general, but maybe I (we) am (are) in the minority.
Keating made an oak series in 2012. Four different oak treatments on a Moon Mountain Fruit cab. Sold it as four halves. You may be able to still get it.
I don’t know of any other winery in the world that gets into the nitty-gritty winemaking details like Ridge. The 2014 Estate Cab:
Harvest Dates: 2- 24 September
Grapes: Average brix 24.6˚
Fermentation: Grapes destemmed, and sorted ; 100% whole berries fermented on the native yeasts. Pressed at six days. Natural malolactic initiated in tank, finished in barrel with additional 16 weeks of lees contact.
Selection: Fifteen of twenty estate parcels.
Barrels: 100% air-dried american oak barrels; (70% new, 30% two and three years old).
Aging: Nineteen months in barrelSustainably farmed, hand-harvested, estate-grown grapes; destemmed and sorted; fermented on the native yeasts; full malolactic on the naturally occurring bacteria; 0.25g/L calcium carbonate to moderate high natural acidity in four of twenty distinct parcels; 1.7% water addition to twelve of the twenty lots; minimum effective sulfur (25ppm at crush, 120 ppm during aging); a fining of 5 fresh, egg whites per barrel for the press wine; pad filtered at bottling. In keeping with our philosophy of minimal intervention, this is the sum of our actions.
I had this and did a little tasting with some wine friends, consensus was the typical blend was the best, (I think 50% new French) with the 100% French next and the no oak last. But a fun experiment and well worth the tariff, although i forget the price.
Very cool. I missed that somehow on Berserker day. I didn’t see it on his website either. I just PM’d Eric to see if it is still available.
Recently I visited a winery that uses zero new oak on some pretty rich reds. There were definitely imbalance issues and the wines were very awkward. I do think a little new oak would have done the wines a big favor.
They had side by side barrel samples of the same block of Monte Bello Cab at a futures tasting a few years ago. The French was good, but not as good. Seemed to be missing something. (Of course, properly aged vs a barrel sample might yield different results.) I want to ask Eric if they’ve tried Seguin-Morreau. Do you know? Might see him Saturday. If so, I’ll get him a taste of a Saratoga Cab I did in a new half barrel. (It tastes like a 60/40 blend of Mount Eden and Bond, he said humbly.)