Rising stars of burgundy tasting

[William_Kelley]

Rouget basically has the Jayer holdings right? Did Cecile get any of them?

No. Cécile grew up in Vosne-Romanée, but I don’t think the connection was especially intimate. Cécile makes great wines, her own way! In the early years, importers used the Jayer connection a little promiscuously (importer mailings sometimes make painful reading) to help sell the wines: now the wines more than sell themselves.

[Howard_Cooper]

If I were doing a dinner I would break out into a couple themes:

1. “Changing of the guard” where you have a wine from the previous generation and a wine from the current generation. I did this with D’Angerville (Jacques to Guillaume) - very good to see the difference in style. You could do this with Selosse in Champagne, Arnoux-Lachaux from Pascal to Charles, Dujac from Jacques to Jeremy etc.

2. “New Kids on the Block” where you have wholly new names. When you draw the line is the question. People that come to mind are Cecile Tremblay, Denis Mortet and Bachelet Monnot

Cecile Tremblay has been making wine for a long time now. I have 2005s from her and I don’t think that was anywhere near her first vintage. At what point does one cease to be a new kid?

2001 was her first vintage! 2003 the first more or less commercial vintage.

There is a lot of “interesting” chronology in this thread…

While there are a lot of interesting winemakers from my generation in Burgundy, I think there is an argument for spending more time thinking about those who are at, or approaching, peak career: the winemakers born in the 1970s and early 1980s. Some of the people cited in this thread, such as Cécile Tremblay and Pierre Duroché, fit into this category. Others would be Olivier Lamy, Jean-Marc Vincent, Bertrand Dugat, Loïc Dugat, Raphaël Coche, Thomas Bouley, David Croix… and so on. Let’s give the millennials a bit of space and time to see how things work out, without anointing the “next Jayer” just yet (that has not tended to work out well in the past).

In an ideal world, one can wait to buy wine until a producer gets to peak career. But, if you can identify a younger producer who is quite promising, you can get the wines before they become as well known and at a point where the wines are relative bargains. May not get the “next Jayer”, but can often get really nice wines at better prices. As recently as a couple of years ago, wines from producers like Hudelot-Noellat (through 2017) and Bernard Moreau (through probably 2016 for his whites and even now for the reds) were relative bargains but we have seen price jumps for these wines over the past few years.

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

Don’t think some people are understanding the point of my post. I’m not talking about new domaines, but new winemakers. Obviously arnoux-lachaux has been around for many years.

Yes, I definitely missed that. I thought you meant domaines where quality had turned around. Got it now.

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

Cecile Tremblay has been making wine for a long time now. I have 2005s from her and I don’t think that was anywhere near her first vintage. At what point does one cease to be a new kid?

2001 was her first vintage! 2003 the first more or less commercial vintage.

There is a lot of “interesting” chronology in this thread…

While there are a lot of interesting winemakers from my generation in Burgundy, I think there is an argument for spending more time thinking about those who are at, or approaching, peak career: the winemakers born in the 1970s and early 1980s. Some of the people cited in this thread, such as Cécile Tremblay and Pierre Duroché, fit into this category. Others would be Olivier Lamy, Jean-Marc Vincent, Bertrand Dugat, Loïc Dugat, Raphaël Coche, Thomas Bouley, David Croix… and so on. Let’s give the millennials a bit of space and time to see how things work out, without anointing the “next Jayer” just yet (that has not tended to work out well in the past).

In an ideal world, one can wait to buy wine until a producer gets to peak career. But, if you can identify a younger producer who is quite promising, you can get the wines before they become as well known and at a point where the wines are relative bargains. May not get the “next Jayer”, but can often get really nice wines at better prices. As recently as a couple of years ago, wines from producers like Hudelot-Noellat (through 2017) and Bernard Moreau (through probably 2016 for his whites and even now for the reds) were relative bargains but we have seen price jumps for these wines over the past few years.

Both seem good strategies.

[William_Kelley]

In an ideal world, one can wait to buy wine until a producer gets to peak career. But, if you can identify a younger producer who is quite promising, you can get the wines before they become as well known and at a point where the wines are relative bargains. May not get the “next Jayer”, but can often get really nice wines at better prices. As recently as a couple of years ago, wines from producers like Hudelot-Noellat (through 2017) and Bernard Moreau (through probably 2016 for his whites and even now for the reds) were relative bargains but we have seen price jumps for these wines over the past few years.

I think that’s the old model. These days, as the first sign of any hype, the market “corrects” up overnight.

[Howard_Cooper]

In an ideal world, one can wait to buy wine until a producer gets to peak career. But, if you can identify a younger producer who is quite promising, you can get the wines before they become as well known and at a point where the wines are relative bargains. May not get the “next Jayer”, but can often get really nice wines at better prices. As recently as a couple of years ago, wines from producers like Hudelot-Noellat (through 2017) and Bernard Moreau (through probably 2016 for his whites and even now for the reds) were relative bargains but we have seen price jumps for these wines over the past few years.

I think that’s the old model. These days, as the first sign of any hype, the market “corrects” up overnight.

Could be your fault???

[Troy_Stark]

The newest in Colin line, Simon.

[RyanC]

The newest in Colin line, Simon.

Great call. I like Simon’s wines a lot.

[Glen_Gold]

In an ideal world, one can wait to buy wine until a producer gets to peak career. But, if you can identify a younger producer who is quite promising, you can get the wines before they become as well known and at a point where the wines are relative bargains. May not get the “next Jayer”, but can often get really nice wines at better prices. As recently as a couple of years ago, wines from producers like Hudelot-Noellat (through 2017) and Bernard Moreau (through probably 2016 for his whites and even now for the reds) were relative bargains but we have seen price jumps for these wines over the past few years.

I think that’s the old model. These days, as the first sign of any hype, the market “corrects” up overnight.

I think there’s at least a few months or even a year delay in most cases between the hype and the thunderous hooves, as people generally look around and see whether anyone else is buying it yet.

[William_Kelley]

In an ideal world, one can wait to buy wine until a producer gets to peak career. But, if you can identify a younger producer who is quite promising, you can get the wines before they become as well known and at a point where the wines are relative bargains. May not get the “next Jayer”, but can often get really nice wines at better prices. As recently as a couple of years ago, wines from producers like Hudelot-Noellat (through 2017) and Bernard Moreau (through probably 2016 for his whites and even now for the reds) were relative bargains but we have seen price jumps for these wines over the past few years.

I think that’s the old model. These days, as the first sign of any hype, the market “corrects” up overnight.

I think there’s at least a few months or even a year delay in most cases between the hype and the thunderous hooves, as people generally look around and see whether anyone else is buying it yet.

A few months is about right.

The current Burgundy market is a little surreal, even understanding the dynamics of it. Retailers appear to be simply making up numbers to see what the market will take. Ex-domaine prices have been rising, yes, but nothing like prices on the secondary market. Since most domaines are small operations with a comparatively small staff, I understand why they sort of shrug their shoulders about what happens once the wines leave the domaine, but for the future of the region I think they should really consider trying to take more interest and control in their distribution.

[Glen_Gold]

I think that’s the old model. These days, as the first sign of any hype, the market “corrects” up overnight.

I think there’s at least a few months or even a year delay in most cases between the hype and the thunderous hooves, as people generally look around and see whether anyone else is buying it yet.

A few months is about right.

The current Burgundy market is a little surreal, even understanding the dynamics of it. Retailers appear to be simply making up numbers to see what the market will take. Ex-domaine prices have been rising, yes, but nothing like prices on the secondary market. Since most domaines are small operations with a comparatively small staff, I understand why they sort of shrug their shoulders about what happens once the wines leave the domaine, but for the future of the region I think they should really consider trying to take more interest and control in their distribution.

Among a lot of other examples, I was just noticing that the 2019 Gouges Les St-Georges is out at $259. The 2017 is still available for $119.

[RyanC]

I think there’s at least a few months or even a year delay in most cases between the hype and the thunderous hooves, as people generally look around and see whether anyone else is buying it yet.

A few months is about right.

The current Burgundy market is a little surreal, even understanding the dynamics of it. Retailers appear to be simply making up numbers to see what the market will take. Ex-domaine prices have been rising, yes, but nothing like prices on the secondary market. Since most domaines are small operations with a comparatively small staff, I understand why they sort of shrug their shoulders about what happens once the wines leave the domaine, but for the future of the region I think they should really consider trying to take more interest and control in their distribution.

Among a lot of other examples, I was just noticing that the 2019 Gouges Les St-Georges is out at $259. The 2017 is still available for $119.

I sure hope LSG doesn’t spiral out of control. Gouges/Chevillon/Faiveley/Liger-Belair LSG is one of last real bargains for what is, in my view, real Grand Cru quality Burgundy. If you can really find '17 Gouges LSG for $119, buy it immediately.

[m_ristev]

I think that’s the old model. These days, as the first sign of any hype, the market “corrects” up overnight.

I think there’s at least a few months or even a year delay in most cases between the hype and the thunderous hooves, as people generally look around and see whether anyone else is buying it yet.

A few months is about right.

The current Burgundy market is a little surreal, even understanding the dynamics of it. Retailers appear to be simply making up numbers to see what the market will take. Ex-domaine prices have been rising, yes, but nothing like prices on the secondary market. Since most domaines are small operations with a comparatively small staff, I understand why they sort of shrug their shoulders about what happens once the wines leave the domaine, but for the future of the region I think they should really consider trying to take more interest and control in their distribution.

i am all for paying more if the producers are taking the lion’s share of the proceeds, but this is unfortunately not the case. while the super premium market for leroy, drc, and the like may never reach a price ceiling, i am rather skeptical regarding many of these recent upstarts. before the first vintage is released somehow a ‘cult’ following has been manufactured and the consumer ends up paying $100 for a ho-hum bottle of negoce pinot that underwent semi carbonic maceration, has some type of contemporary looking label that is individually numbered, and is of course sealed with wax. how long will the market sustain these new entrants with little to no track record?

[Bertrand_Leulliette]

Here are a few “rising stars” in my view:

• Domaine la Croix Montjoie in Vezelay
• Domaine Sirugue-Noellat in Vosne (Arnaud & Sophie)
• Domaine Pierrick Bouley in Volnay
• Domaine Alexandre Parigot in Meloisey (Pommard)
• Alvina Pernot in Puligny
• Domaine Simon Colin in Chassagne
• Domaine Dussort in Meursault
• Domaine Elodie Roy in Maranges
• Domaine de la Folie in Rully

and YES I work with all of them but after being here for three weeks and tasing dozens of Estates from similar villages, I feel like these will be the “talk of the town” for years to come and I am not even talking about the Estates who have new blood taking over recently such as Anne Gros, Dubreuil-Fontaine or even Heresztyn-Mazzini…

If you have a lot of money you can talk to an architect, if not, you can build it yourself… I find the latter to be oh so satisfying.

[Mark_Golodetz]

Still not recognized but the Volnay of Bernard Glantenay.Fabulous wines with serious complexity.
Rossignol Trapet has been around and somehow remained affordable.

[Daniele_Bevs]

Very intresting thread!

What about Pataille? He’s been under the spot light for quite some time and I have seen a lot of appreciation for what is done, but the prices (at least here) are still reasonable.

Bachelet Monnot is gaining popularity Imho, came across it in 2018 for the first time and was a “rarity” now I’ve seen it in some fancy restaurants as well.

My trusted wine seller is pushing “Les Horees” which are small garagiste iirc, he also has Bachelet Monnot, Thiriet (I think he brought the first bottles of this domaine from burgundy in his own car) Pataille (direct import i think) so I had good reason to believe there’s something going on with this Les Horees.

What about Marc Soyard?

[Russell_Faulkner]

Horees and Soyard already very culty in Europe. If you can access at a good price do.

The idea of me having to ‘push’ Horees here is funny.

[Daniele_Bevs]

Speaking from my country (italy) I’ve seen Soyard several times on IG and if I do a google search I get a lot of results for buying it.

I’ve only seen les horees at my seller’s place, was initally hard to remember the name so I went with “the one that has a red with a flying elephant” for a long time and if I do a google serch + wine searcher I can’t find a single bottle for sale in my country.

The prices he asked was quite high for my perception of what it should cost, I had the same idea for Thiriet but he asked 35 € for the Burgogne blanc confidentielle 2018 (very good wine indeed, looking around the price i can find for that bottle are now almost 2x). The Burgogne rouge from Les Horees was maybe 65 or 80? I can’t remember for sure but I know I thought “this doesn’t seem right”.

I mean: you don’t have “pedigree”, even a stupid one like your father’s cousin once painted Jayer’s dog house. You’re not using highly regarded plot of lands (for the Burgogne).

I highly doubt he’s discovered a revolutionary tecnique to make wine that’s patented, I think we’re past that.
You might be good at your job and make very good wine, is it enough to command such prices?

[Russell_Faulkner]

Les Horees is Catharina (she not he…)

We sold the BR for €36.

[Daniele_Bevs]

Sorry I believe I’ve spoken poorly, I was talking abot my wine seller, not the producer

36 € seems reasonable at this point maybe I wasn’t talking about the Burgogne (or my seller misunderstood me and was talking about another bottle from the producer)