The "Rules" Are All Wrong: Sweet Wines Belong with Your Meal

WINE TALK
1

Berserkers,

After sharing an absolutely lovely meal at Vertica with Mike Grammer, Todd Estroff and his wife Maria, I am more convinced as ever – more so as a foodie than as a Berserker – that the rules are all wrong and that sweet wines belong with the main course and not dessert.

We had a great meal of Niagara Cassoulet, cheese boards, flatbreads and artisanal pickles. During this meal, a white Burgundy and a Graham’s 1977 Vintage Port were opened right away and were consumed by Todd, Michael and myself all throughout the meal after dumping a red Burg gone bad. We had a 98 Suiduiraut later with dessert but it paled in the greatness of the port.

The Graham’s 1977 Vintage Port was WOTN for me and above and beyond this, it went perfectly with the savory meals. I have argued this before as a foodie and and I will argue it again and again: sweet wines should not go with dessert. Wine experts all but acknowledge as such to me when they keep recommending a dessert less sweet than the sweet wine or to have it with cheeses – especially blue – and foie gras. Well having had plenty of both as a foodie, I’m pretty certain those last two are savory foods. What they’re not outright saying that we all pretty much know and my long time foodie and short Berserker experience proves to me is that if you have a sweet wine with almost any kind of regular dessert, either the dessert will be ruined or the sweet wine will be ruined.

Further to my theorem – does anyone here have any problem ordering a Coke (or any other soda) or an iced tea or a lemonade with their meals once in a while? Of course not. The reason why they go so well is that the sweetness and acidity of these drinks – major components of sweet wines as well – perfectly balance out the salty and savory flavors of a good meal. In contrast, I would never have Coke or lemonade with a cheese plate or a flourless chocolate cake. So why is a sweet wine “just for dessert?”

I understand that we are talking different textures and mouthfeels and further that some people find sweet wines such as icewine and TBAs and rich Sauternes to perhaps be too cloying to go with a meal and not as thirst quenching as a dry table wine. Solution: DRINK WATER with your meal as well! Aside from being healthy for you, it prevents the alcohol from getting to you too quickly and cleans out and refreshes your palate and mouth.

You could also do a trick that was taught to me in BC – just drop a single small ice cube in your sweet wine. This is very common practice out there. While this may sound like anathema or blasphemy, I tried it with a very sweet room temperature Okanagan Vidal icewine at my sister in law’s behest when I visited them there and it actually turned out great. Worse comes to worse, just try a less sweet wine like a late harvest or beerenauslese. Or if the thirst-quenching aspect of a wine is important, a sweet low-alcohol wine like Moscato or Brachetto or a German or Austrian Auslese will also do the trick.

Don’t get me wrong, I am appreciating dry wine more and more these days and I love discovering how well it matches up with foods. Just last night, in fact, 4 friends and I got together for a dinner of cucumber soup, lemon feta cheese and bread, salad greens with Green Goddess dressing, and braised chicken and sausage on a creamy cheddar cauliflower coulis. We had a local Pillitteri dry Riesling-Traminer wine and it went perfectly with the meal. I would never drink this on alone and on its own, but amongst friends and accompanying a good meal it was great. Of course, the port Todd brought would’ve gone great with it as well. It would’ve been an especially good match given that the richness and warmth of the Port would match the rich texture and flavor of the braised chicken and sausage dish that I made.

What I’m arguing for is the idea that a sweet wine should actually be treated exactly as a dry table wine when it comes to food matching. I just find they go so much better with a meal than they do with desserts. The only two wineries that seem to believe in this theory with me are Chateau D’Yquem who I know have a very succesful restaurant on premises in France where they serve a ton of Sauternes with their meals and Cave Spring Cellars who had the unfortunate experience of having to cancel three LCBO food and sweet wine pairing classes because I was literally the only person in all of Toronto who signed up.

If this prejudice against sweet wines with savory meals keeps up, I may have to do something drastic like start blogging about sweet wines exclusively or actually teach a sweet wine pairing seminar. [stirthepothal.gif] I cannot rest until people see the light. In fact, I’m putting together a sweet wine tasting from my personal collection for members of the local wine group I tour with to start the revolution.

And so you know, I am starting to lean towards the reverse as well as I’m starting to find dry red wine going very well with chocolate. So there’s going to be a post from me one day on matching dry wines with dessert as well as I explore that concept more. I can already share with all of you that there is no other milkshake on earth quite like a Cabernet Franc Vanilla Bean milkshake. [cheers.gif]

2

What is ‘Niagara Cassoulet’?

3

Are you one of those sugar-loving Americans Tran? [wink.gif]

4

I think it’s more about the acidity that complements the sugar that determines how much any given “sweet wine” belongs with a meal.

This weekend, to toast a recently tragically deceased friend, Francois Barmes, we opened two of his 2001 grand cru Hengst: riesling and gewurtz. Though the gewurtz was seemingly “too” sweet to belong at a meal, last night we had the remnants with porkchops. We remarked how well it went. I am convinced that’s mainly because it had such great balancing acidity to its 40g/l r.s.

IMO

5

Hmm. Not so sure Tran.
I’m a big Cassoulet fan (although as Bob asks, not sure what a Niagara cassoulet is? The duck and/ or sausage sourced there perhaps?) and I’ve tried a lot of wines over the years with it, but to my tastes and that’s what we’re talking here - personal tastes, the absolute perfect match is either northern rhone syrah or red burgundy.

Cheese is about 70/30 for me in terms of matching dry or sweet wines. 70% tend to go better with dry wines, 30% sweet (must have good acidity) wines. Fat and flavour decide which way to go.
If I’m serving a sweet wine at the end of a meal - I would prefer a suitable cheese to match VS. a sweet or chocolatey dessert. That said, I do like Creme Brulee and sauternes.

As you say - you’re not the 1st person to prefer sweet wines with all types of food. I’ve seen menu’s from Bordeaux from over a century ago that matched entire meals with Sauternes, but those tended to include lighter poultry or game birds and seafood such as lobster.
It may be a red herring however depending whether all Sauternes made over a century ago were as sweet as they are today.

One small clarification - above, I think you are suggesting that alcohol % plays a part in a wines thirst quenching ability?

6

Googling “Niagara Cassoulet” yields this: http://www.greatestatesofniagara.com/Wine-Pairings-Recipes/Mains/Lobster-Cassoulet

7

Oops. Sorry guys, Niagara Cassoulet is indeed the classic French dish only made with locally Niagara, Ontario sourced duck and sausage.

Mike, I am worse than a sugar-loving American, I am a sugar loving Canadian spreading the evil internationally.

Stuart, condolences on your friend’s passing. You do make an excellent point on the acidity needing to balance the sugar, though I consider both of those equally in a sweet wine myself when matching them up.

Chris, I love the idea of your dry wine and cheese matching. Would you have some specific examples you could share with us? I’d love to try some combos.

Also, my reference to the ABV% was not clear enough, thanks for pointing that out. I meant to infer that if inebriation was a concern, a lower ABV type of sweet wine like a Moscato or Brachetto would allow one to consume more wine to slake one’s thirst will less ill effect than, say, a port or a Sauternes. Not saying it’s not possible to down a full glass of 20% vintage port to quench oneself, but it’s gonna have a hell of a more powerful effect than a full glass of 5.5% Moscato. Obviously too much of either will lead to the exact same end result.

8

Tran - Port and Sauternes have nothing to do with each other. I agree with your basic premise that sweet wine belongs with the meal and need not be left until last. Port and fortified wines however, are hard for me to take if it’s going to be a beverage. I don’t like the high alc levels. That’s why, much as I like sherry, I have a hard time with that too, even tho some of the dry ones are brilliant matches for some dishes.

Non-fortified sweet wines however, are easier. The problem with many of them is that they lack sufficient acidity to keep them interesting and they’re just sugary drinks as a result. The wines I’ve been most happy with are the German Auslesen and even Spats, and the various wines from Tokaj, and not always aszu wines. Both of those more so than the Sauternes or any kind of icewine. Mostly because you can get them in various levels of sweetness, whereas something like Sauternes only comes in one style.

9

You had me reading this until you got to coke (soda), iced tea (presumably sweetened), and lemonade. None of those work for me with a savory dish and neither do sweet wines.

10

I won’t be drinking my German Riesling Berenauslese, Quarts de Chaume, Sauternes, or Tokaji Aszu with roast chicken. However, some sweet wines clearly work with some savory dishes: sweet wines with salty cheeses like Sauternes with Roquefort or Port with Stilton; sweet, rich wines with rich foods like Sauternes with lobster or Sauternes with foie gras. Also, German Rieslings with some residual sugar work well with lightly spicy Asian food.

Generally, I will have my rather-to-very sweet wines by themselves, or with cheese, preceding the dessert course. I, too, believe that most desserts are too sweet to accompany most “dessert” wines.

11

Chris, I love the idea of your dry wine and cheese matching. Would you have some specific examples you could share with us? I’d love to try some combos.

Well, I wouldn’t say this is my idea. I believe it is generally accepted that other than blue-veined cheese that cheeses from all over the world match up better with dry wines.

What dry wines do you enjoy, or what cheeses do you like? - easier to match that way.

If asking what I like? We do a large raclette wheel with friends twice a winter and although the classic match is considered the local Chasselas, I prefer pinot gris from alsace (with some artisanal calvados between courses, of course).
When I get down to Alex at the market I buy a few of my favourites such as reblochon, livarot or brillat savarin. Almost always a nice ripe Epoisses. These go pretty well with red or white burgundy. I think champagne almost always works as well.
On a more local level I adore Riopelle and usually have a dry white with it either german or austrian riesling.
Another good guide is using the local wines to where the cheese was produced - at least in the old world.

12

Tran is far from the first individual to discuss Port (not “port”) with entrees or savory courses. I have written articles about Port pairings and have had many a meal with just Port, including Pheasant, foie gras with Tawny, and VP with sushi which I’ve enjoyed too. But lots of people have written about this very topic over the years.

Some wine enthusiasts only think in terms of Vintage Port when considering a bottle of Port, but there are great aged White Ports and also wood-aged Ports that can be had with main courses and don’t have to wait until the dessert comes around. In fact, the majority of the time that I have Port at the end of the meal, it comes after the dessert course is done. Few desserts make for brilliant pairings with Port, that I certainly agree with.

I never understood how dark chocolate and Vintage Port are supposed to work in harmony, yet many love them together … go figure. Different tastes for different people and I’ve learned that if someone wants to drink Chardonnay with steak, let them enjoy it. Right bank Bordeaux with a delicate piece of salmon which I would find terrible … as long as the person finds it works for them, then great. The thought police can’t judge for other’s palates.

13

I would make Roy’s point a bit differently (but I agree with it). The reason you put the word “Rules” in quotes in your thread title is because this is a rule that is experiential and majority-opinion based. Nobody wrote it down as a dictate; rather it was derived from the collective experience of consumers over many generations. It is fine to have different tastes. Do you really want to suggest that the majority is wrong simply because your experience differs? Be my guest, but rest assured you haven’t changed my tastes any more than I need to change yours. When you do find great (and surprising) synergies in your food pairing explorations, report them here, please. I’ll be happy to follow your lead if you separate the wheat from the chaff first [cheers.gif] .

Cheers,
fred

14

My issue with port, at any point in a meal, is that it kicks your ass alcoholically way too fast. Therefore, a bottle at the end of the meal divided into many small glasses around a large table of diners is the only viable approach, imho. Unless getting your ass kicked alcoholically is your aim, of course. :slight_smile:

15

But is there really THAT much difference from a 19.5% Port and a 16.5% dry wine? You should be using smaller glasses for Port and taking a smaller pour, so your alcohol intake probably ends up being more with several larger pours of the dry wine over the course of the meal.

16

Tran is spot on. I drink a LOT of Port with meals and it goes very well with most of them. There is an old image that Port can only be drunk after dinner, either with desert or on it’s own. As Roy mentioned there is more types of Port than just Vintage Ports and while VP may not pair well with a particular dish a Tawny, White, LBV, or other type may be a perfect match.

People drink Port at the end of the meal because that is what they learned when they first got into wine. When you go to a wine store, they all tell you Port is for desert. You read old books or see movies, Port came at the end of a meal where the fat old men retired to smoke a cigar and drink some Port. I encourage people to toss out these old out-dated stereo-types and enjoy Port anytime of the day and with meals.

17

First off, thanks very much to everyone for sharing their thoughts.

Nowell, I actually had never previously considered having cheese and sweet wine BEFORE the regular dessert but as it turned out that was essentially what Todd, Maria, Mike and I were doing with our dinner and that went very well. I think the addition of the cheese prevented the port and desserts from clashing with each other.

To play off of both of Fred’s and Andy’s points, Fred is quite correct in pointing out there is no hard and written “rule,” but rather collective experience over generations that suggests sweet wines not go with savory meals. This is risky, but I somewhat wonder if this may also be because other there is a fear of going against the grain and looking foolish cemented by years of stereotyping? This is what Andy is alluding to.

Now the flip side to this to support Fred is that if I were a Sauternes or port or icewine (or any other type of sweet wine) exclusive winemaker, you’d better believe I have an extremely vested interest in getting people to drink them with their meals so they consume more than they normally would in order to make more sales. So marketing myself as the vintner that “goes against the grain” when I’m really trying desperately to increase sales doesn’t carry much objective weight to it either so perhaps I shouldn’t invoke winemakers for support.

Fred, I also like your suggestion of putting my money --er, my wine and food – where my mouth is and actually reporting the great sweet wine and food pairings I find. The dinner with Todd, Mike and Maria was a good start and I’ll be sure to report on the Nov. 14th get-together on what foods went well with the wines I brought. Practically blog material right there in and of itself. Thanks for the idea.

18

I wouldn’t know: after some bad experiences years back, I never drink 16.5 % dry wines. My sweet spot is 11-13%; I’ll drift up to 13.5 for good Burgundy, and down to 8% for good Mosel-Saar-Ruwer. Actually, I’ll drift up to 14% occasionally for Spanish and Rhone wines, though we serve these mostly in winter precisely because of their abv. I can appreciate the quality of well-made, higher-alcohol wines on their own, but they are a hassle in a normal meal setting; and I drink almost exclusively with meals.

The whole fuss some years ago at ebob about whether 15%+ wines are ‘tables’ wines, imho, revolved precisely around this point. This issue, kicked off by Broadbent’s comments on a prestigious Cali Cab, was not so much the wines’ quality, per se, but how well they serve as flavor-enhancing thirst-quenchers with meals (ergo, ‘table’ wines). Starting at about 14%, in my world, you really have to dial back on the volume of intake over the course of a meal in order to forestall an unpleasant degree of inebriation. Evidence that I’m not alone in this assessment is found in the long-standing convention of serving strong wines (sherry, madeira, port) in small glasses, which facilitate portion control.

19

I can pour almost half a bottle of Burg in my special occasion 26oz balloon Burg glass and it still looks only 1/3 full. heheh. “…but honey, I’m only having ONE glass of wine” [cheers.gif] [cheers.gif]

20

I have not been able find any wine ( or dry wine ) …which goes well with my son’s favourite Chinese dish : sweet and sour pork yet.

Well …different strokes for different folks. No offence is intended… [cheers.gif]

BTW - Port is too heavy for me. I gave up on them years ago.



The title of this thread : The “Rules” Are All Wrong: Sweet Wines Belong with Your Meal

What I’m arguing for is the idea that a sweet wine should actually be treated exactly as a dry table wine when it comes to food matching. I just find they go so much better with a meal than they do with desserts. The only two wineries that seem to believe in this theory with me are Chateau D’Yquem who I know have a very succesful restaurant on premises in France where they serve a ton of Sauternes with their meals and Cave Spring Cellars who had the unfortunate experience of having to cancel three LCBO food and sweet wine pairing classes because I was literally the only person in all of Toronto who signed up.

***** … cancel three LCBO food and sweet wine pairing classes because I was literally the only person in all of Toronto who signed up… *****