The World's finest Chardonnay is from ...

[Lee_Short]

So your favorite, not the world’s finest. Got it, carry on.

Exactly.

If we’re really talking the world’s finest, I think the list is limited to a few grands crus from Chassagne/Puligny and Chablis. I’m priced and premoxed out of those wines, but I used to be able to buy them as special bottles. I’ve had Mount Eden Estate, various Walter Scott and Goodfellow, etc. Those are fine wines, and great values. But I haven’t tasted anything to indicate that they are as fine as Ramonet Le Montrachet or Raveneau Le Clos or Dauvissat Preuses.

Now I don’t think those burgundies are “epiphany” wines that are on a whole other level. I don’t buy into the whole epiphany wine business, either for red burgundy or white burgundy. The quality difference between Goodfellow “Richard’s Cuvee” and any of those wines is one of degree, not of kind.

[Howard_Cooper]

From Montrachet. More specifically, I would probably punt for Ramonet as others have done - but then I’ve had far fewer top wines from Lafon, DRC, Coche Dury and D’Auvenay.

As an aside, great to see William mention Guffens in the list, and as I have posted on other threads, LEAS deserves a very high ranking too.

Ramonet is also my favorite Burgundy producer.

[Jan_Janas]

I’ve heard d’auvenay whites are the best chards in the world. Tho I’ve never had

I would vote for d’Auvenay Chevalier-Montrachet, Ramonet Grands Crus from 70s and 80s, Leflaive Chevalier-Montrachet from the 70s and early 1980s (especially 79 and 82); Coche Perrières & Corton-Charlemagne, and Jean-Marie Guffens’ Clos des Petits Croux and La Roche from Pouilly-Fuissé. Between those, it would be very hard to choose in a blind tasting.

From California, some of the best releases from Kalin Cellars and a few impossible things to find such as the 1980 Chalone Reserve would have to be part of the conversation.

I looked up Guffens-Heynen but could’t find either the Clos des Petits Croux or La Roche here in Australia. All I could find from the domaine Guffens-Heynen were some Saint-Verans and Mâcon-Pierreclos, of which it seems you rated the Juliettes et Les Vieilles high in 2018 (all are 2018 vintage). I see a La Roche from what I guess is the negoce or the second label Verget. What do you recommend as intro Guffens and is there anything that’s close to the two wines you mentioned?

[Scott_Brunson]

Salon

[Robert_Sand]

…the Cotes-de-Beaune from Meusault to Chassagne, but I do not forget Corton and Chablis.
As I’ve written in the Pinot thread excellent Chardonnay is produced in Austria (often called Morillon), different more fruity style than Burgundy -

[William_Kelley]

I looked up Guffens-Heynen but could’t find either the Clos des Petits Croux or La Roche here in Australia. All I could find from the domaine Guffens-Heynen were some Saint-Verans and Mâcon-Pierreclos, of which it seems you rated the Juliettes et Les Vieilles high in 2018 (all are 2018 vintage). I see a La Roche from what I guess is the negoce or the second label Verget. What do you recommend as intro Guffens and is there anything that’s close to the two wines you mentioned?

The Australian importer of Guffens is Robert Walter IIRC, who wrote the excellent book on Champagne, and he might be able to guide you if you got in touch (he might be able to find you something older, too?). But to understand the Guffens-Heynen range, it’s essential to know that in the three sectors where the domaine produces wines—Mâcon-Pierreclos, Saint-Véran, and Pouilly-Fuissé—there are three or more bottlings: beginning with one that uses the later press fractions (which are higher in pH and sugar) and sometimes younger vine or higher yielding fruit from less favored sites; and concluding with a top bottling using first press juice, the lowest yielding vines, and the highest altitude sites. So Pouilly-Fuissé, for example, the range begins with the “C.C.” bottling (in 2018 “Les Trois C”) which is rounder and softer, and culminates with a “Tri des Hauts des Vignes” (in cool vintages, when Guffens makes multiple picks) or a “Premier Jus des Hauts des Vignes” (in hotter vintages, where everything is picked more or less together). (The Clos des Petits Croux exists in a world of its own - it’s a tiny plot that makes one barrel or very occasionally two, and it’s immensely structured and age worthy, but it really needs 10+ years to begin to show all its cards). So, to experience the real Guffens-Heynen fireworks you should look for something with “Tri” or “1er Jus” in the name. I have a few articles in TWA that unpack this all a bit more thoroughly, and perhaps more comprehensibly than this rather hasty exegesis, happy to send you something in DM if you want more detail.

[J_Cohen]

DRC Montrachet, Leflaive Montrachet, and Leroy d’Auvenay.

[Howard_Cooper]

Frankly, between Walter Scott, Goodfellow, and a few others, there really isn’t any reason to buy white burgundy any more.

Unless, of course, you like white burgundy.

Actually I love white burgundy, and through generous friends, I usually have tastes from one or two bottles of relatively top-end white burgundy (premier cru or better) every week. For my cellar, I don’t like the prices, and I don’t like the premox, and I don’t like the drinking five bottles to find one that has the real sap, cut, and complexity that I’m looking for. I’d rather get those qualities more reliably in something affordable. A good number of burgundy houses have figured this out and are making wine here. Perhaps you need to venture out and try something new.

If it takes drinking five bottles of white Burgundy to find one you like, you need to be getting better advice on white Burgundy producers to try. Maybe you should get out more.

[Rick_Allen]

Unless, of course, you like white burgundy.

Actually I love white burgundy, and through generous friends, I usually have tastes from one or two bottles of relatively top-end white burgundy (premier cru or better) every week. For my cellar, I don’t like the prices, and I don’t like the premox, and I don’t like the drinking five bottles to find one that has the real sap, cut, and complexity that I’m looking for. I’d rather get those qualities more reliably in something affordable. A good number of burgundy houses have figured this out and are making wine here. Perhaps you need to venture out and try something new.

If it takes drinking five bottles of white Burgundy to find one you like, you need to be getting better advice on white Burgundy producers to try. Maybe you should get out more.

I’ll tell my friends that are still buying and sharing their white Burgundy that they need to do better. And while COVID-19 has put a serious damper on things, it’s amazing how many opportunities to taste there are when you live in wine country.

[ATaylor]

Hard to beat Aubert Lauren.

I was surprised that no one had mentioned Aubert to this point. Many of my top chardonnay experiences have been with Aubert wines over the years. Now I’m seeking out WB more earnestly, particularly with age.

We drank a '14 UV-SL the other night on some wild salmon. It was a damn good bottle; with Aubert I think you need to forget them for a while and pull them out after 5-7.

[Pau1_M3nk3s]

I looked up Guffens-Heynen but could’t find either the Clos des Petits Croux or La Roche here in Australia. All I could find from the domaine Guffens-Heynen were some Saint-Verans and Mâcon-Pierreclos, of which it seems you rated the Juliettes et Les Vieilles high in 2018 (all are 2018 vintage). I see a La Roche from what I guess is the negoce or the second label Verget. What do you recommend as intro Guffens and is there anything that’s close to the two wines you mentioned?

The Australian importer of Guffens is Robert Walter IIRC, who wrote the excellent book on Champagne, and he might be able to guide you if you got in touch (he might be able to find you something older, too?). But to understand the Guffens-Heynen range, it’s essential to know that in the three sectors where the domaine produces wines—Mâcon-Pierreclos, Saint-Véran, and Pouilly-Fuissé—there are three or more bottlings: beginning with one that uses the later press fractions (which are higher in pH and sugar) and sometimes younger vine or higher yielding fruit from less favored sites; and concluding with a top bottling using first press juice, the lowest yielding vines, and the highest altitude sites. So Pouilly-Fuissé, for example, the range begins with the “C.C.” bottling (in 2018 “Les Trois C”) which is rounder and softer, and culminates with a “Tri des Hauts des Vignes” (in cool vintages, when Guffens makes multiple picks) or a “Premier Jus des Hauts des Vignes” (in hotter vintages, where everything is picked more or less together). (The Clos des Petits Croux exists in a world of its own - it’s a tiny plot that makes one barrel or very occasionally two, and it’s immensely structured and age worthy, but it really needs 10+ years to begin to show all its cards). So, to experience the real Guffens-Heynen fireworks you should look for something with “Tri” or “1er Jus” in the name. I have a few articles in TWA that unpack this all a bit more thoroughly, and perhaps more comprehensibly than this rather hasty exegesis, happy to send you something in DM if you want more detail.

I’ve had “Tri des Hauts des Vignes” and “Premier Jus des Hauts des Vignes” bottlings before and found them excellent, even outstanding. But I’ve never had one that made me think it was the world’s finest Chardonnay. FWIW, I like this style a lot and feel that various Germans in Rheinhessen are inching along towards making ones as good as G-H.
EDIT: Never seen or had the Clos des Petits Croux, so maybe that one is on another level?

[William_Kelley]

I looked up Guffens-Heynen but could’t find either the Clos des Petits Croux or La Roche here in Australia. All I could find from the domaine Guffens-Heynen were some Saint-Verans and Mâcon-Pierreclos, of which it seems you rated the Juliettes et Les Vieilles high in 2018 (all are 2018 vintage). I see a La Roche from what I guess is the negoce or the second label Verget. What do you recommend as intro Guffens and is there anything that’s close to the two wines you mentioned?

The Australian importer of Guffens is Robert Walter IIRC, who wrote the excellent book on Champagne, and he might be able to guide you if you got in touch (he might be able to find you something older, too?). But to understand the Guffens-Heynen range, it’s essential to know that in the three sectors where the domaine produces wines—Mâcon-Pierreclos, Saint-Véran, and Pouilly-Fuissé—there are three or more bottlings: beginning with one that uses the later press fractions (which are higher in pH and sugar) and sometimes younger vine or higher yielding fruit from less favored sites; and concluding with a top bottling using first press juice, the lowest yielding vines, and the highest altitude sites. So Pouilly-Fuissé, for example, the range begins with the “C.C.” bottling (in 2018 “Les Trois C”) which is rounder and softer, and culminates with a “Tri des Hauts des Vignes” (in cool vintages, when Guffens makes multiple picks) or a “Premier Jus des Hauts des Vignes” (in hotter vintages, where everything is picked more or less together). (The Clos des Petits Croux exists in a world of its own - it’s a tiny plot that makes one barrel or very occasionally two, and it’s immensely structured and age worthy, but it really needs 10+ years to begin to show all its cards). So, to experience the real Guffens-Heynen fireworks you should look for something with “Tri” or “1er Jus” in the name. I have a few articles in TWA that unpack this all a bit more thoroughly, and perhaps more comprehensibly than this rather hasty exegesis, happy to send you something in DM if you want more detail.

I’ve had “Tri des Hauts des Vignes” and “Premier Jus des Hauts des Vignes” bottlings before and found them excellent, even outstanding. But I’ve never had one that made me think it was the world’s finest Chardonnay. FWIW, I like this style a lot and feel that various Germans in Rheinhessen are inching along towards making ones as good as G-H.
EDIT: Never seen or had the Clos des Petits Croux, so maybe that one is on another level?

How would you characterize the style? I ask because I never had anything like Guffens-Heynen from the Rheinhessen.

But at the end of the day it is both a matter of taste and personal tasting context, too. In that sense, the question is somewhat arid.

I do think that the Guffens wines are, like most top white Burgundy, at their best with at least ten years’ bottle age. But, being from the Mâconnais, they are less likely to be given that much bottle age than the most celebrated appellations of the Côte de Beaune.

[Howard_Cooper]

I do think that the Guffens wines are, like most top white Burgundy, at their best with at least ten years’ bottle age. But, being from the Mâconnais, they are less likely to be given that much bottle age than the most celebrated appellations of the Côte de Beaune.

In today’s premox era, are you still aging white Burgundies for 10 years or more? I am only talking about wines from 1995 on.

[Pau1_M3nk3s]

How would you characterize the style? I ask because I never had anything like Guffens-Heynen from the Rheinhessen.

But at the end of the day it is both a matter of taste and personal tasting context, too. In that sense, the question is somewhat arid.

I do think that the Guffens wines are, like most top white Burgundy, at their best with at least ten years’ bottle age. But, being from the Mâconnais, they are less likely to be given that much bottle age than the most celebrated appellations of the Côte de Beaune.

I find both have a very floral aspect to them. Very appealing. It appears that I haven’t actually written up very many notes on these guys, but found these two:

• 2006 Guffens-Heynen Mâcon-Pierreclos Le Chavigne Trie des Hauts de Chavigne - France, Burgundy, Mâconnais, Mâcon-Pierreclos (1/16/2016)
  No notes. One bottle was pop and pour, the other was decanted. Both drunk early and the decanted one finished after a few hours. Both were stellar and fresh. This is my favorite Maconnaise. Outstanding. (94 pts.)
• 2005 Guffens-Heynen Mâcon-Pierreclos Le Chavigne Tri des 25 ans - France, Burgundy, Mâconnais, Mâcon-Pierreclos (8/23/2015)
  This wine had a really great showing tonight. The nose was a pleasant mix of almond, vanilla, mineral and flowers. The palate was a nice mix of mineral, citrus, almond and vanilla, lightly chalky. The body of this wine is heavier than a Côte d’Or, being similar to a more fleet-footed California chard minus the tropical exotica. It’s got a bit of mineral zing without the electricity of its compadres from the Côte. Excellent to Outstanding.

[William_Kelley]

How would you characterize the style? I ask because I never had anything like Guffens-Heynen from the Rheinhessen.

But at the end of the day it is both a matter of taste and personal tasting context, too. In that sense, the question is somewhat arid.

I do think that the Guffens wines are, like most top white Burgundy, at their best with at least ten years’ bottle age. But, being from the Mâconnais, they are less likely to be given that much bottle age than the most celebrated appellations of the Côte de Beaune.

I find both have a very floral aspect to them. Very appealing. It appears that I haven’t actually written up very many notes on these guys, but found these two:

• 2006 Guffens-Heynen Mâcon-Pierreclos Le Chavigne Trie des Hauts de Chavigne - France, Burgundy, Mâconnais, Mâcon-Pierreclos (1/16/2016)
  No notes. One bottle was pop and pour, the other was decanted. Both drunk early and the decanted one finished after a few hours. Both were stellar and fresh. This is my favorite Maconnaise. Outstanding. (94 pts.)
• 2005 Guffens-Heynen Mâcon-Pierreclos Le Chavigne Tri des 25 ans - France, Burgundy, Mâconnais, Mâcon-Pierreclos (8/23/2015)
  This wine had a really great showing tonight. The nose was a pleasant mix of almond, vanilla, mineral and flowers. The palate was a nice mix of mineral, citrus, almond and vanilla, lightly chalky. The body of this wine is heavier than a Côte d’Or, being similar to a more fleet-footed California chard minus the tropical exotica. It’s got a bit of mineral zing without the electricity of its compadres from the Côte. Excellent to Outstanding.

Those seem like pretty good notes! Our scores for the 2006 are the same. The 2005 you haven’t rated but I think it’s one of the best white Burgundies of the vintage: it was a ripe year, but you’ll find that in the Côte de Beaune, too; and it has huge levels of dry extract. I scored it 95 and can’t wait to try it again in a decade. If you can find a 2005 white Burgundy from the Côte de Beaune with more “mineral zing” that isn’t from domaine d’Auvenay, Coche-Dury or, caveat premox, Leflaive & Pierre Morey, I would love to know what it is!

[Pau1_M3nk3s]

William, flattery will get you everywhere, at least in my case! That “Excellent to Outstanding” for the unrated bottle means 93 or 94, couldn’t decide. And not sure exactly which Côte de Beaune wine I was referring to then - I vaguely recall an electric Morey as well as some nice Antoine Jobard from that time.

[Greg_K]

Actually I love white burgundy, and through generous friends, I usually have tastes from one or two bottles of relatively top-end white burgundy (premier cru or better) every week. For my cellar, I don’t like the prices, and I don’t like the premox, and I don’t like the drinking five bottles to find one that has the real sap, cut, and complexity that I’m looking for. I’d rather get those qualities more reliably in something affordable. A good number of burgundy houses have figured this out and are making wine here. Perhaps you need to venture out and try something new.

If it takes drinking five bottles of white Burgundy to find one you like, you need to be getting better advice on white Burgundy producers to try. Maybe you should get out more.

I’ll tell my friends that are still buying and sharing their white Burgundy that they need to do better. And while COVID-19 has put a serious damper on things, it’s amazing how many opportunities to taste there are when you live in wine country.

I find the attitude of “there is no need to buy white Burgundy anymore” far more dismissive than anything proponents of white Burgundy have said in this thread. Chardonnay is, by some distance, my favorite white grape, so I am always interested in finding new sources for it. I own New Zealand Chardonnay, California Chardonnay, Oregon Chardonnay, and I’m always trying new things. I would never claim there’s no reason to buy Oregon Chardonnay.
You turned a cheeky joke into a rant about the supposed close-mindedness of white Burgundy fans, which is entirely in your imagination. Doctor, heal thyself.

As an aside, I do agree with Howard - if it takes you five bottles of primer cru white Burgundy to find one that matches the quality of a good Oregon Chardonnay, your friends have made some extremely unfortunate purchases.

[Richard_Albert]

86 Ramonet Montrachet proved itself several times.

[chetkern]

Both Michel Niellon Batard and Chevalier from the 70’s through 1990. Mind bending wines in 79 83 85 86 88 89 and 90.

The wheels then feel off the truck beginning in 1995 though those 95’s were great on release.

[Howard_Cooper]

As an aside, I do agree with Howard - if it takes you five bottles of primer cru white Burgundy to find one that matches the quality of a good Oregon Chardonnay, your friends have made some extremely unfortunate purchases.

More importantly than that, we have a person who studies Oregon wines but the only Burgundies he drinks are what are put in front of him. He admits therefore that he has not made any study of Burgundy, its producers or vineyards (just drinks what he friends put in front of him) but somehow thinks he knows all there is to know about Burgundy. I would call that extreme arrogance.