Thanks for the input again, Howard. I love the style of the 2010s, it’s definitely my favorite vintage of the last decade from what I’ve experienced. So far I’ve been buying each vintage but just more or less depending on how I like the style. There are certain producers that I’ll buy almost every vintage but I’ll buy different producers depending on what I read and taste. The hardest part for me is guessing or knowing what they’ll be like with age since I’m earlier on in my wine journey. I’m not always sure how to deal with vintages like 2004 and 2011 since some people avoid them like the plague and others enjoy them (knowing how to pick out the wines not effected as much by the poor weather I assume). For example I’ve heard Aubert de Villaine likes his 2004s a lot but I know that’s not the best example for this point. Anyway, your comments about the behavior of different vintages is really helpful. That’s the kind of advice I’m looking for.
Kirk, I agree, I think we’re on the same page. I have limited space as well. Also, I can’t afford to buy as much as I’d like through each quality level, so I’m more likely to go for less village wines, and get a few Premier or Grand Cru in place of them. This isn’t saying I ignore village or regional level but I’m not buying 6-12 bottles of a wine. This also relates to the pricing as you mentioned. It’s not going any lower, so I feel like I should definitely focus on snagging some 1ers and GC now, even if it means sacrificing some village and regional wine buying. Thanks for your post, it’s helpful to hear from people in a similar situation!
Why take a chance on 2004 or 2011 (except for wines you taste and like) when you can more reliably buy other vintages.
Good to know, Rich. The wine group/offline comment is a good idea. I’ve always leaned towards the “if you like the wines on release/when they’re young, you’re most likely going to like them when they’re mature” as you say. I was a little confused by the 2015 reds however, after tasting some producers that I usually enjoy and the wines seemed overly fruity or in a “modern style”. I wasn’t sure if it was the vintage or because the wines were/are young and are showing so much fruit. I much prefer mature wines but I’ve enjoyed drinking other vintages younger than many 2015s because they showed less overt fruit. I still bought 2015s but just made sure to lean towards cooler terroirs and producers that didn’t produce an overly fruity/modern/extracted style.
Thanks for your input!
Good point. Makes sense to me. On the topic of vintages, and I know you said you’re not buying as much young wine these days, but do you have any thoughts on 2016?
As mentioned before, a lot comes down to your budget and your available space. If you had unlimited funds, why not buy a bunch of the great producers’ great wines, and just for breadth of scope buy the better premier crus they make as well. And buy them in great, good, and average vintages to see how they differ? Of course, many of us don’t have unlimited funds, and must therefore make some decisions. Those decisions become more difficult if you have $1000 a month to sink into your Burgundy cellar than if you had $10,000 or $100,000.
I am not saying that you cannot build an excellent Burgundy cellar with more limited funds, one that you will enjoy and learn from over your lifetime. But the great producers we all know about have gotten prohibitively expensive, so your question about whether you should buy the “classics” just comes down to whether you can afford them, and how much the experience of drinking a fabulous bottle of wine is worth to you. Would you pay $1,000 per bottle? $5,000?
Personally I love great Burgundy, but I have come to the conclusion that no wine experience is worth that much to me. You can get seduced into overspending when you read the sublime language of the reviewers’ tasting notes. Yes, a $100,000 stereo sounds better than a $10,000 stereo, but by how much?
I was lucky enough to put together my Burgundy cellar back when the great wines by the great producers were expensive but not absurd (though not early enough for them to be inexpensive or even reasonable), and the great producers have that reputation for a reason…which is why there is no reason for someone with an unlimited budget to deny themselves. Others of us need to decide how we spend our wine dollars. I would never sell my Rousseau’s now, regardless of their market price, but I would never pay market price for them now…big difference.
Although how I bought Burgundy over the years worked for me in accumulating a good cellar, I would not recommend it. I did not have the opportunity to taste much before buying, unlike others on these boards, so I bought based on reviews that I trusted, being Tanzer starting in about the 1988-1990 vintages, and adding Burghound and Gilman later. Based on consensus I bought widely, usually in 3 bottle increments, and bought from a wide range of well-regarded producers, generally cherry picking their best grand crus and best premier crus. Some might say that my purchases were skewed in some way, and lacked overall context, but it allowed me to cellar some great wines, and over time I did find what appealed to me stylistically. One mistake I made was not to taste each wine upon or near purchase. If I had bought in 4’s I could have tasted one early, put the rest away for some years, and learned more over time. The wines I wanted were too expensive for me to buy in 6-12 bottle quantities, for the most part, but following them over time would have been a great learning experience. All along I aimed for the top producers, except for DRC which i felt was too expensive, while keeping my eyes open for the newer up and coming ones, and that I do not regret. Some people talk about buying in every vintage, or buying in all but the lousiest vintages, but again it comes down to allocation of funds. I am glad I bought heavily in 1993, 1999, 2005, 2010, and fairly well in 1996, 2001, and 2002, and sparingly and very selectively in 1995, and 1998, and little to none in 1997 and 2003, and I am happy to have totally bypassed 2004 and 2011. In my opinion, Burgundy is expensive, even in lessor vintages, and although there is educational value in experiencing them all, again it comes down to allocation of limited funds. And there is always great fun in backfilling as you discover that less heralded vintages you may have paid less attention to are coming along nicely. In my opinion, if you must allocate resources, there is nothing wrong in being selective and going for quality of producer and of vintage and of wines in their stable, as long as you provide yourself some context of experience and are open to figuring out which styles you like and which you don’t.
Lastly, I would say that a case of excellent premier crus is worth more than the same amount of money spent on a single bottle that is supposed to be “ethereal”, and despite the seductive language of the critics’ tasting notes, that ethereal experience is elusive and rare despite how much money you spend per bottle chasing it. And the more you spend per bottle, and the harder you have to work to procure it, and the longer you cherish it in your cellar, the loftier your expectations. Burgundy, and maybe all wine, is like baseball…if you bat .300 in a bottle living up to your expectations, you are really doing well. So only spend as much on a bottle as you are willing to lose.
The wines can be frighteningly inconsistent and very vintage dependent. And the prices seem heavily tied to any increase in quality. Good producers make good wines. It sounds simple, but no where is this more important. Taste many different producers to get a feel for what each brings to the bottle. If you buy the best producers, from the best sites, in the best years you can afford, the odds are stacked in your favor. The “best” will have to be determined/discovered by you. The wines need time. And really seem to reveal themselves after a good number of years. I rarely find pleasure in any red Burgundy above entry level that is not ten years old. A good glass is something that can really help showcase the wines. As can being slightly below room temperature.
What is the proper response in the following situation:
Background: You taste a producer you like, say Arlaud Charmes Chambertin 2015. Admit you are not a bonafide expert on liking Arlaud as a producer versus the whole universe of producers, or Charmes Chambertin on the whole universe of villages – but you have some basic education you like the wine. Also admit, you are not an expert (nor will you become even basically educated) on 2016 vs. 2015 vs. 2014 vs. 2013. Lastly, you have means to buy bottles and hold onto them for 5-15 years while you figure things out. Finally, you find a reputable retailer who offers prices on Chambertin at new release prices, and admit that back filling in 5YRs will just be very difficult or much more expensive.
Do You:
- Do nothing at this time: you need to taste, taste, taste a lot more
- Buy 3-6x bottles of the 2015 Charmes Chambertin
- Buy 1-2x of Charmes Chambertin from this producer across a few different years to cellar (so 3-6x across 2013-16 depending on pricing)
- Buy 1-2x of Charmes Chambertin across a few different years, plus additional bottles across a range that you have some experience with and know you will generally like (e.g., Clos de la Roche, or village level Gevrey… across those same years)
This is the practical question I run into. I am tasting as much as I can, and will be going to Paulee to help facilitate tasting many different producers. But my palette won’t be really honed for many years. So does that mean sitting on ones hands and waiting it out for many years – when this stuff is so difficult to purchase at reasonable prices? Or does that mean selectively building 1-2 cases for a producer when you find (i) something you generally like and (ii) are obtaining reasonable pricing on it?
I’m sure there is no “right” answer. But I wonder what the smarter/practical answer is (other than “wait 5 years till you are are smart enough to buying new releases for yourself”)
My head is spinning with the possible approaches.
What worked for me is this…taste as much as you can, find an excellent retailer near you and let them know of your interest, etc., etc., of course. Decide on a wine writer whose palate you think you can trust…this may change as your tastes develop. For me it started and has continued with Tanzer, and over time I added Burghound and Gilman, and more recently Neal Martin. You will find there will be general agreement among them on the better and best producers, the hierarchy of wines in each of their stables, and to a large extent vintages. Buy the best wines you can afford from the best producers you can afford in the best vintages you can afford in the quantities you can afford. As you find over the years that your tastes develop and there are producers you no longer prefer, you should be able to unload those wines…and if they are from good producers in good vintages that should not be difficult. It is simply a fact of life that those wines with higher ratings in better vintages will, with many exceptions of course, have a greater chance of pleasing you, and if they do not, will be easier to unload.
Years from now you will find that you have accumulated an excellent Burgundy cellar of wines that are becoming ready to drink and enjoy
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Excellent Retailer
Thought I would consolidate purchases with 2-3 retailers, but this is too difficult for now. Stocks and pricing differs so much
across them. And I’m not convinced any retailer I’ve purchased from will give me preferred allocations of more difficult to
source stuff just yet. 2018 will be the test. Regarding learning preferences, right now I am just trying to get that via taste, taste, taste. -
I subscribe to Vinous
Got the sense their reviews were the most objective (given a very low bar) -
Be OK trying to sell in future
This is EXACTLY what I am TRYING to do. I figured I am tying up capital, but that’s OK, if I am buying stuff that I can unload in the future. Unfortunately, with the price of Burgs so high, I have strayed a little bit from this. 2015s from the “best” producers, at this point in sourcing them, is frankly too difficult. I will not going to purchase $300/bottle wine for the most part… and my sweet spot is $75-225. Accordingly, Mugnerets, DRC, etc. are all largely out of my reach. So far I have purchased Faiveley (across the range), Arlaud (across the range) and L’Arlot (1er) – and trying to cancel most of my L’Arlot purchases realizing I strayed too much from a blue chip with a producer I am too unfamilar with. Purchased only a half case of Duroche, although I really liked the single bottle I tried so expect to drink most of these. I purchased a 6 pack of 2015 H. Lignier VV because (i) i know i like CdlR, and (ii) the one Lignier I tried (although a Pommard) made sense to me of producer style… should be able to unload these at my cost. I think have room for 3 more producers beyond Faiveley/Arlaud, and am trying to wait till La Paulee to round it out. By 2018 vintage, I will be smarter I hope, and will focus on adding on the same producers or rotating onto new ones. I’ll try to sell my 2013-16s at that time, but if I cannot make my cost… will continue to professionally store them and try again in 5YRs.
As an example of Faiveley:
My Faiveleys “to store” are weighted #1 2016 (60%), #2 2014 (30%), and #3 2015 (10%). This is largely because of pricing/inventory I was able to secure vs. CT cost data. And I have a bunch of the older stuff 2001-2012 that I’ve picked up to drink over coming years as well, while I figure out what do to with my 2014-16s. I have some Clos Beze which is above my price point as well, in mag format as well, which I see sold quite quickly on Commerce Corner as well. Accordingly, by 2018 I will be smarter on (a) do I want/need to add 2018 Faiveleys and (b) if so, which ones. Further, over time, I hope I will be able to sell professionally stored Mazi/Beze, at least at my cost, and backfill Latricieries, Corton or Fuees if that’s where my head is at. Or buy more than the 6 pack of 2016 Cazetiers I procured (which I quite enjoyed).
I purchased Faiveley from a single store, who I believe will give me good pre-sale pricing in 2018. I have also now identified two other retailers (one I buy from and one I do not) that have nice Faiveley inventory & price (although limited 2015).
My Faiveley strategy is not ideal, but in lieu of an offline of folks bringing a range of Faiveley or a La Paulee… I bit the bullet on this one to get started. And by 2018 I will be much, much smarter – and hopefully can rebalance my Faiveley portfolio at that time.
For me: #2 or the first #3. Probably #2 if I liked the vintage.
Given my comments on selling/unloading wine, I should say that I have rarely sold wine, actually none for many years since I sold off a lot of Bordeaux and collectible CA stuff as I realized my tastes had changed, and I have almost never sold any Burgundy. My point was that, if you find producers you do not, years later in retrospect, care as much for stylistically, if they had good ratings (unfortunately true) from good producers in good vintages then they would be easier to unload. The way you describe your approach sounds more like day trading stocks. As to tying up capital, that is essentially what collaring wine is, and if you have chosen wisely, then your capital will not only be tied up for years but completely but pleasantly consumed and peed out.
In other words, I would never buy a wine planning to sell it down the line. That just makes no sense to me.
My intent is not to sell them. But I am looking to that as a form of downside protection as tastes or budgets change. I am hoping that purchasing and storing well will allow me to break even.
I get the first sentence, and it is nice to know that your investment might be at least partially recoverable should you find that some wines are not to your taste. The break even part is what confuses me, as it implies that by careful buying and selling, you may be able to finance the purchases you keep and drink with the profit on those that you sell. Although conceivable, probably unlikely, and there’s is something about approaching Burgundy as a commodity to be leveraged, invested in, sold, etc. that I find kinda distasteful. But perhaps that is not what you were trying to say.
Break even as: I paid 170 for 2015 H Lignier VV ba CellarTracker average cost of 167. Store it for five years at Domaine for 15 cost. Can sell it in 2023 for 175-190. Preferably on Commerce Corner. Sounds too easy ![[whistle.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/8/87d24eb81ec6dc01d84f3d6c19fa9a357e90218e.gif "whistle"){kind=small}
. But for now, I intend to drink them over 1-15 years
Are you a winedrinker or an arbitrager? 
I am not talking arbitrage. My question pertained to whether it makes sense to purchase more than you have tasted, if there is the ability to offload those purchases in the future; there is a cost here of brain damage, capital (opportunity cost of money sunk or different bottles not drunk), let alone the risk of declining wine prices (this feels a little like housing where folks think future vintage pricing only go up!). However, waiting 3YRs to decide I liked the Hubert Lignier 2015 VV enough to buy some may preclude me from having bought any at all. In 3-10YRs time, if I keep tasting at the rate I am… I imagine I would not need to be doing this at all, because my tastes/knowledge base will be more evolved.