Thanks Kevin, this is very reassuring, I might open one now to see and rest when the time comes.
Larry,
We have tasted many trials and examples of crossflow filtration. I don’t fault anyone who uses it, but we were not happy with the results. Since 2006, we have bottled over 50 different wines and our current protocol has only produced a single problematic bottling (2%) so while I am very disappointed with the 09 FF, we don’t intend to start filtering.
Hey Kevin
I’m very sorry to hear about the issue. I know that you guys are just about as careful as one could be. And I know how passionate all of you are with each wine, so I hope the second lot stays crystal.
I was just curious about something; why is it that you mentioned French wines, and specifically Burgundy wines when you are putting your current issue into context? Why are you not mentioning other US wines? Do you test those as well? If so, how do other wines test out from your direct peer group in comparison?
Cheers
Ray
Ray,
In our tests, Brett is much more common in Burgundy wines. As you know, Brett is viewed quite differently in Burgundy. It is certainly meant to be managed but most vignerons that I have talked to say that “Brett is part of wine”. In fact I had that exact conversation with a prominent producer just a couple of weeks ago. It is a very different view than in the New World where Brett is viewed as something like instant wine death. NW winemakers go to great measures to avoid it and even the tiniest amount is viewed as a flaw.
My own views lie in between the two poles but I find both points of view interesting and informative of differing wine cultures.
I apologize if you think my comments were meant to disparage Burgundy. They were not.
Certainly sorry to hear this news, but sh*t happens. I’m especially bummed as I have a mag, so I can only keep my fingers crossed.
Interesting comments indeed . . . . and though ‘old world’ winemakers may view brett as a part of the process, it begins to ‘take over’ the process when it is not controlled and it blooms when you don’t want it to. And this, to me, is the most troubling part of not only brett but microbes in general - though they may be ‘below detection levels’ or even at ‘very low levels’ in one’s cellar or in barrel, we as winemakers cannot control all of the variables that may affect that wine before it is consumed - temperatures during transport, temperatures during storage, etc. So to me, ‘bottle variation’[ due to these things really is ‘controllable’ - but many choose not to do so.
I am not against those who do not filter, and I am not against those who choose to do things in a more ‘natural’ way, but at the end of the day, this is a product that we as winemakers should be proud of and that speaks to what we want it to be - not to what uncontrolled microbes and spoilage yeast cause it to be at times.
Cheers.
Larry,
Rhys has chosen a path that ultimately leads to why their wines are so unique.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
As long as they make good for their very occasional problems (like evidenced here),
I applaud their efforts for minimum “interventional” winemaking.
TTT
Kevin,
Sorry to hear about the problems with this wine. I very much appreciate your incredible efforts to produce the very best wines possible, and your offer to refund or replace these bottles AT ANY TIME in the future is very admirable. (Curious…would you replace them with whatever the current vintage is?)
Had I not opened this thread, I might not have become aware of this issue, and it would have been a few years until I opened any of my 5 bottles. I might then have assumed that the Rhys wines were not as good or at least as consistent as I had hoped based upon their reviews in the wine press. I only searched for the Cellar Tracker tasting notes AFTER reading this thread, and again had I checked those after tasting a bad bottle (or more) from my cellar, I might have formed some incorrect impressions of Rhys wines in general considering how many unpleasant tasting notes for this wine were listed there.
And so I am wondering, in light of this being such an isolated incident but one affecting as much as 50% of this wine, did you consider upon its discovery taking a proactive step and sending out an email to the members of your mailing list describing the problem and your offer of refunding or replacing the bottles. Obviously if mild Brett is a common occurrence, one would not necessarily want to overreact, but if the tasting notes for the affected bottles are any indication, the problematic bottles are not subtle in their affliction. I just wonder if that would have lessened the disappointment index as apparently taster after taster, at least as reflected in Cellar Tracker, have opened bad bottles and wondered why people think Rhys has such a good reputation. I realize that one potential downside is the power of suggestion affecting the enjoyment of the good bottles. Perhaps the thought of the widespread dissemination of this warning leading to the entire production of 2009 Family Farm shipping back to your doorstep was a little daunting as well! I am just curious whether this would have been better “damage control”.
As do I Testy!!!
Robert,
So far we have had only a few reports of a problem and many very positive notes on CT so the magnitude of the problem is not entirely clear. I only personally witnessed a bad bottle last week while we were updating our drinking window notes. We are going to discuss the issue in our newsletter on Tuesday so everyone will be informed.
Kevin - remember the rule of the internet: whenever you found out is too late to please people. ![[wink.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/04707e6a7bbb03e0153e349d8a9270d30e1e9525.gif "wink"){kind=small}
Gosh…where to start…
Some of us out here love wines with a Brettanomyces character. I drink Burgundies for exactly this reason, and Belgian Lambics also.
For those of you who have had Brett-affected Rhys pinots…how did they express themselves? Was the flavor/aroma similar to horse blankets? or was it more irregular?
I’d really love to try some Rhys, to sort this out. It’s hard to find here.
Kevin,
Ah, that makes sense. From your original post in this thread, I assumed that you had been aware of this soon after release and felt that perhaps as much as half the production, one of the two lots, was affected. That was not necessarily the case, or at least is still being investigated. As always, your “transparency” and consumer relations are admirable.
Best,
Robert
Paul,
I would agree with most of what you have said here, though ‘interventional’ is certainly a subjective term when it comes to winemaking as evidenced by numerous threads here and elsewhere.
I have no issue with what Kevin/Rhys does, just as I have no issue with what any winery/winemaker does. The issue arises, though, when you have an ‘occasional’ bottle that may be off due to microbial or yeast ‘issue’, and a customer who may not know much about the winery experiences this and is not impressed with the winery/wine and figures they just ‘okay’’ wine . . . Kinda lock when folks who are not adept at picking out ‘corked’ wines have a slightly corked one and feel that the wine is ‘missing something’ and relate it to the wine, not the closure.
I hope that make sense, and I applaud Kevin’s offer to take back bottles if the customer so chooses - very nicely done.
Cheers.
Had two of these from the same (my) order. One was smooth as silk, the other had some animal brett character to it when opened, but it blew off after about an hour or so.
Drank my first of a case in Dec '11 and thought it was pretty good - just a little stemmy. Had my second last September, and it was bretty for sure. I’m not trying to pile on, just offering some data points. It would be interesting to hear if anyone with mixed results like this had a bretty bottle shortly after release but a clean bottle recently, because otherwise this is sounding like a latent in-bottle bloom.
Kevin, what are the odds that magnums are affected?
By the way, if this issue gives anyone pause about the upcoming release (especially with the standing replacement/refund offer)…well, that’s just nuts.
Tyler,
It’s really hard to say since Mags definitely mature differently than 750s (and with Brett each bottle can be different). I will open one next week and report on what I find.
I’ve had 3; 1 in 12/11, and 2 more in 4/12. I perceived all 3 as being fairly clean. Someone in my circle opened one 1/13, and said it was spectacular. This thread is making me want to check in for myself. I’ll try to squeeze one in during the next 2 weeks.
Is it safe to assume that those of us who picked up at the winery, and put the wine straight into cool storage, should be OK? Kevin have you found above threshold levels in any bottles in the winery?
Kevin, Curious as if you think this was relegated to one tank. If so, folks who bought a case of wine should either have 12 bottles with the infected wine, or 12 bottles of the clean wine (assuming you bottled one tank, then the 2nd tank). If both tanks were blended back and forth for homogenity, or the hoses coming off of both tanks were connected before going into the bottling line, then it makes sense that the entire lot is infected.
If you indeed bottled one tank first, then the 2nd, it does not make sense that the folks who bought a case are experiencing different wines within the same case (unless the brett is expressing itself in bottle at a different rate, bottle to bottle, which certainly could happen depending on cell count).
Trey