This “sponti” thing is getting a bit out of hand IMO. All sorts of wines from all over the world are made with wild yeast ferments. Yet German riesling is the only category in which I’ve ever heard anyone refer to a “stink” or “funk” from it or claim that there are specific aromas associated with it. I suspect this is deep into hogwash territory. The whole point of a wild yeast ferment is that it’s all sorts of varying yeasts doing the job so the idea that there is a characteristic note to it does not make a whole lot of sense.
Someone suggested that I try this Riesling Hofberg Grosses Gewachs A. J. Adam 2010. Any opinions? I can pick this up locally.
An interesting read re: sponti. What’s the Stink? – Lars Carlberg: Mosel Wine
To thread drift slightly, if, say, Pruem’s vineyards or cellars are host to particular strains of yeast on a permanent basis, and these are the primary yeasts involved in the fermentation of the Pruem wines, it would follow that the odd aromas persist every year, even if a wild fermentation is done.
I was not referring to any funk or stink from MSR wines, but praising the extraordinary attractive sponti notes from young dry SF wines
[quote="Keith Levenberg
This “sponti” thing is getting a bit out of hand IMO. All sorts of wines from all over the world are made with wild yeast ferments. Yet German riesling is the only category in which I’ve ever heard anyone refer to a “stink” or “funk” from it or claim that there are specific aromas associated with it. I suspect this is deep into hogwash territory. The whole point of a wild yeast ferment is that it’s all sorts of varying yeasts doing the job so the idea that there is a characteristic note to it does not make a whole lot of sense.[/quote]
Keith - I drink a ton of Riesling and I would respectfully disagree. I would also go further and say that Riesling is a very unique grape that is highly sensitive. I have had a few zero S02 Rieslings and they are radically different than wines from the same producers that only use a small amount of Sulphur (have you had the Uli Stein no sulphur?). I have also had some skin fermented Rieslings that also taste nothing even close to Rieslings. My point is that Riesling is much more sensitive to anything other than the standard protocols and for those who use indigenous yeasts and spontaneous fermentation the results can be dramatic.
I think riesling and pinot noir are in the same ballpark of sensitivity to all the usual factors. I cannot determine if either of them was made with a wild yeast ferment with any amount of confidence without googling it (and am skeptical of anyone who claims they can). I’m not disputing that wild yeasts can lead to dramatically different and potentially more interesting results than cultured yeasts. In fact, I’m inclined to prefer them for that reason. What I’m questioning is whether those results are different in a consistent matter that leads to particular flavors such that it makes sense to use a phrase like “sponti notes” or “sponti funk.” I thought it was obvious that the particular flavors you are going to get depend on the particular yeasts involved, so the idea that one guy’s wild yeasts are the same as another guy’s wild yeasts (such that they produce the same consistent “sponti notes”) doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.
I am exactly stating that SF wines have these characteristic SF sponti notes. Not any other winery ![[cheers.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/0ff9bfcdb0964982cd3240b6159868fbdf215b1a.gif "cheers"){kind=small}
Why would one producer have “characteristic sponti notes” but other producers that also do wild yeast ferments would not?
Monzinger Halenberg is a very, very special vineyard (and ultra-steep!) and with these winemakers at the helm it would almost be a sensation if they wouldn’t produce first class wines from such a stellar site. I’m utterly spoilt by the fact that I have known both Frank, Werner and Tim for many, many years and have the fortune to visit them every year to taste their entire line-up. Regarding quality, in my opinion, there isn’t a difference but rather a question of personal taste. I have always had en extra fondness for Tim’s interpretation of the soil and exposure and when I have occasionally tried to pinpoint the reason, I believe I have concluded that I feel his Halenberg are bit more mineralic and “cool” in its fruit component. Often reminds me of melted glacier water. Frank and Werner do amazing things with their part and I simply adore their wines as well. What has maybe made them just a slight notch below (to my taste, mind you), is that in some vintages I have felt a little too strong “citrus” character in the wines. Having said that, when I visited this spring and tasted together with Frank, both samples taken from tank and then straight from the barrels in their cellar, I must say that I found no such citrus notes in the 2015s and not only that - the wines were simply brilliant across the line. As were those made by Tim. Both noted what an extraoirdinary opportunity and raw material the über-excellent 2015 vintage provided them. Kind of food for thought, when adding that both Dönnhoff and Keller feel it’s the best vintage since they started growing grapes.
Regarding the wild yeast fermentation, I can’t help smiling when I see people commenting on Tim’s wines. For you not knowing Tim personally, I recommend trying to get an appointment, meet with him in person and then try suggesting to him what he should do with his decision of using wild yeast from the vineyards when fermenting his wine. Before you try, a few words of caution. This is a winemaker that knows, in minute detail, exactly what he is doing and why. To the last millimeter. I would claim he’s completely off the charts when it comes to both passion and knowledge. There are so many fun stories where he drives his pickers completely crazy at harvest time because of his attention to detail. Or his obsession of picking optimal ripe but perfectly healthy and botrytis-free fruit. And meeting him and tasting together with Tim…well, I feel like a junior student each and every time when discussing winemaking with him and above all, I feel like standing up in a firm and focused attention, military style! That’s the feeling of Focus he evokes. Don’t take my word for it - try it yourself. And beware…you need stamina. I’ve learned the hard way by now. Like when he says it has to be a quick tasting because he has much work to do and little time. Sure, you think for yourself, no worries, because even half an hour will probably be most interesting and rewarding. It’s when a half an hour has passed and he’s just finished talking about his Blanc de Noir vom Spätburgunder (basically a rosé), having covered all aspects of soil, fermentation, and background info on the maturing cycle in the vineyard, that you start realising that his “it-has-to-be-a-quick-tasting” is a…hum, “flexible” term. Tasting with Tim earlier this year took six hours. Next time I will bring some power bars and a survival kit. Frank and Werner are not much better… They generously provide a Manhattan skyline of wines when visiting and it’s not uncommon that they have older vintages open for fun comparisons. And tasting with Werner in the celler, seeing him go from barrel to barrel with that…PASSION…in his eyes. It’s pure magic.
In my opinion, both estates offer some truly awesome wines, especially from the Halenberg vineyard. My recommendations are three if you plan to visit the tiny villages of Monzingen (Emrich-Schönleber) or Bockenau (Schäfer-Fröhlich).
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Go to the gym before and build up a Superman stamina before visiting for a tasting.
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Don’t forget to have a look around in the vineyards if you have made it all the way here. Particularly Monzingen is fun to watch from the side, where you have the gap (to fit in the village) and then Halenberg to the right and Frühlingsplätzchen to the left.
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DON’T miss out on some fabulous culinary celebrations at very reasonable prices while you are there!!
If visiting Monzingen, make the short drive to Meddersheim and dine at Langendorf’s Landgausthof zur Traube. Absolutely delicious…! Here’s the link: Langendorf
And if visiting Bockenau, head down to Dönnhoff Country and dine at Restaurant Hermannshöhle (yes, just beneath the famous Niederhäsuer Hermannshöhle vineyard), where chef Wigbert will treat you to some absolutely delightful dishes. Here’s the link: Restaurant Hermannshöhle
Enjoy!
Nobody ever suggested he do anything differently. His wines are wonderful. My only comments were in reference to the way other people describe them (and others).
I dont know. Tim Frohlichs wjnemaking is quite unique.
All I know is that the sponti notes in SF wines are very attractive.
Great input, Miran.
But what makes you think they are “sponti notes”?
I thought most agreed that sponti ‘blows off’ and if that’s true and a factor or reductive winemaking then the cellar handling procedures would play a big part.
If it’s something that “blows off” I don’t see how that can be connected to the yeast. Reductive winemaking could do it it but of course you can have reductive winemaking with or without “sponti” fermentation.
Keith, I’m afraid not even my profession as a Chemistry teacher will be enough to fully explain - or understand - why some wild yeast evokes a particular “sponti” character. I think there is lot of reseach going into this but so far the results seem to be mixed as to the true origin and explanation. I guess this is a perfect topic where one research investigation can come up with a certain claim, while the next published article will show the opposite. There are many people out there who are way more qualified than myself who might give their input. But it’s an interesting topic however you look at it. Why does JJ Prüm’s wines stink like hell after (but not prior) bottling? How can an entire vintage from Maximin Grünhaus be affected by serious stinky notes (when they are young) and not the previous vintage, or the next vintage after? And why is it that some sponti “blow off” after airing while others don’t? All interesting questions. In fact, when I tasted with Tim it was tank samples prior to bottling and I couldn’t detect a single nano-bit of “stink” - rather the opposite. Totally purity in fruit, texture and minerality. Yet I too feel the sponti in some of his GGs when they are year or two in bottle. Same thing goes with JJ Prüm. They are the freshest examples of wine you could possibly imagine, yet after bottling they feel very different. Maybe it’s a combination of wild yeast fermentation and how the wine reacts to the mandatory addition of sulphur? I’ll be sure to ask that when I meet Frank, Werner and Tim next month.
What I DO know is their reason for choosing such a method, despite the obvious risks involved. Spontaneous fermantation with wild yeast may sound romantic but can be a pain to the winemaker, with fermentation stopping and then starting without much control. It is always MUCH easier to use industrial yeast or certain strains but having talked to so many winemakers I realise that they have two particular reasons for going out on a limb and take the risks involved. One seems to be maintaining that special vineyard character - obviously true terroirists…and second, it creates - in their humble opinion - a higher quality wine. Drinking their wines I have no doubt they’re onto something. The quality is mind-boggling.
Oh, and Sarah, agree on the 2012 Halenberg GG. Absolutely yummy.
How often do readers here find these aromas on 20 year old wines? I don’t and I drink plenty.
Why wouldn’t the chemicals that produce the smell oxidise over time.
If it’s not sponti then what is it?
You can be sure there are studies from Geisenheim on this.
Russel, in my experience - never in older wines. Only during maybe their 1-2 first years.
If it is stinky and it only appears after bottling, it blows off, and it disappears with age, wouldn’t sulfur be a more likely explanation than ambient yeast? If the characteristic is attributable to ambient yeast, one would expect it to be apparent before bottling.
It may be that this is an absurd idea and I don’t realize it because of my ignorance of chemistry, but could there be a common ambient yeast strain that produces compounds during fermentation that tend to produce specific other aromatic compounds when they react with sulfur?
It would seem so!
Well Prum claim to have tested for sulphur and found no more in theirs than their peers. That has been discussed here several times.