No, St.Prefert is Isabel Ferrando, high quality now, but more semi-modern than traditional.
Domaine de Ferrand is Philipp Bravay, producing only one single CdP (and an excellent Cotes-du-Rhone Vieille Vignes) in the North of the Appellation.
Any strong feelings about Domaine de Villeneuve here ? the 2016 I tasted was really nice.
Isabel Ferrando is the poster child for all that is new and overripe in CdP, unless things have changed recently. Clos Mont Olivet is also now a Cambie wine, though I would agree that the base cuvee doesn’t seem to show it. Vieux Donjon has been debated enough here. I don’t see how people who tasted their wines from say 90-01 can think they have not changed, but it is a matter of debate.
Yes, they make some of the most balanced, restrained (for CdP) wines in the region (the base wine, NOT the higher end cuvee) They definitely belong on both lists.
Having tasted quite a few recent vintages of Vieux Telegraphe, I would no longer put them on the current list, at least not for the red. Around 2000, sure, but not in the past few vintages. People here have disagreed with me and will probably do so again, but they usually haven’t tasted as many recent releases as I have. Every one tastes like Grenache liqueur.
I know absolutely nothing about CdP, but had a Costco-buy, Delas Freres the other day that was amazing. 94p wine.
I find the Northern Rhône wines by Delas Freres highly stylized and modern, but have never tried their Southern Rhône collection.
+1
Donjon is now modern.
Completely agree.
Really??? I haven’t had the wines since 2013 vintage. That would be super sad.
Mordoree is one that I’ve found to really show a lot of terroir. It can be big in the warm years, but I find it’s great in off years (like 2006 was killer)
No mention of Cristia?
Two words:
Phillipe Cambie.
Donjon is now DTM.
When did Cambie start consulting for them? I had the 16s recently and thought they seemed like fairly traditional CDP. Of course, I don’t drink much CDP.
Cambie started consulting in around 01. I not I ed the change in 03. If you like them now, pay no attention to us vulgarians. You have lots of company here.
By the way, Cambie’s presence frequent!y indicates a modern style, but the match-up is not always perfect. I think the level of his participation varies. And places like Clos des Papes and Mordoree genuinely represent the winemakers taste, which I don’t share. You really have to make these decisions wine by wine for yourself.l
Just to remind everybody - it´s not simply black & white, traditional or modern …
great differences between (just for instance) Clos St.Jean, Janasse, both Usseglios, Giraud, Mordoree, Marcoux, Les Cailloux, Clos du Caillou, Vieux Donjon, Saint Prefert, Mont-Redon, Mont-Olivet, Autard, Gardine, Hillaire, Clos des Papes, Cuvee du Vatican, Font de Michelle, Moulin-Tacussel, etc.
… and there are also very traditional producers where the wine is simply not very good …
I´ve very limited experience, mostly from the late 80ies/90ies. Seemed to be traditionally made with a lot of structure and astringency …
and their terroir is not the best in CdP - in the Northern part. Definitely in need of cellar time, but even after 15+ years not really charming and balanced.
Cannot say anything about wines after 2000 though.
Is any change in 03 really notable?
Not sure what part it was from, but it was the 2016 Haute Pierre. Yes, could probably be categorized as more modern, but with enough earth to feel “real”. It just drank so well.
I’m of sure what you are asking. The 03 VD I bought was quite noticeably overripe and even pruney. I took that as the vintage at the time.And in a sense it was, since they didn’t make another quite like that one. But 04, 05 and 06 certainly seemed to me riper, more polished and with softer tannins. At that point, I stopped following them. But I have tasted the 15 and 16 at Printemps au Chateauneuf and it didn’t seem to me that they had gotten more traditional recently. I still have VD from 98-01 in my cellar and they are different wines to my taste.
My point was that everyone made pruney wines in the Rhone in 03, so judging anyone on 03 is bizarre. Plenty of northern Rhone producers I love whose 03s are well nigh undrinkable.
Anyway, our definition of traditional in CdP may be different, random comments regarding vulgarians notwithstanding. Especially since I don’t drink much CDP, and am basing it on my tasting of the 16s, when I could have made decent wines.
The 05 VD is very ripe, not 03 prune, but big and boozy for my palate, not like the 99-01s really.
The 2007 is over-ripe but one might expect that with the vintage. The 2015 and 2016 versions are quite decadent, I got them for my Dad. He likes that style. I think both got big critics’ praises.