What Grape(s) Do NOT Reflect Terroir???

WINE TALK
21

Stuff like this is subjective, so it’s not exactly fair to say you’re simply wrong, but: this is whacked. Riesling is intensely specific, to its home region first and foremost, and then to individual sites.

Merlot is kind of a soft, anodyne wine in most places. Hard to single out.

Given the density of its plantings, it would be easy to put Grenache on the list, but Louis Barruol has convinced me otherwise.

Muscat, Gewurztraminer, Pinot Gris are candidates for the list.

And regarding Heimoff: He is routinely enmeshed in bias for the region he covers, and he seems to have little self-awareness about it.

22

Lots of Muscadine grown here in the coastal south and fermented into…something.
Someone braver than I will have to drink it and check for terroir

23

sorry, but very very wrong

24

We have three very different soils from which we grow Riesling. If you walk literally 20 feet to the west of our Basalt parcel, you are standing in a Muschelkalk vineyard. Walk 20 feet to the north and you have Sandstone. All 3 give vastly different flavors. In fact, I would say that almost everyone could identify the origin of Riesling from different producers, cellar techniques, and vintages given the following 4 options for soil: Basalt, Muschelkalk, Slate, and Sandstone. Especially if vinified dry –sugar certainly masks terroir to some extent. Completely different aromas, flavors and textures.

Many of the aromatic varieties are quite sensitive to terroir –Both Muscat and Gewürztraminer perform best on sand with good drainage –they are both very prone to botrytis on heavier soils.

Different vines and rootstocks are also more or less sensitive to the nutrient content found in different soils –the health of the vines depends on finding a suitable site.

These are only a few examples relating to soil. Bringing climate into the discussion is another variable that must be accounted for.

Cheers,
Bill

25

But, of course, muscadine is not a grape.

26

I was just going to say that. It used to be you could tell a Medoc from a Napa cab, but that’s less and less true. Tuscan cab, restrained Aussie cab, Napa – they kind of blur.

The fact that Bordeaux doesn’t always stand out I guess says more about winemaking in Bordeaux than about the grape’s transparency.

Whoa! Just when you’re making good sense you go and say something like that.

I find it pretty easy to tell Mosel wines from Saar wines, and both from Nahe or Rhine wines even blindly. And no riesling from anywhere else tastes that similar.

27

I agree with Berry!

28

Grapes picked and crushed at 28+ brix? Because they’re so sweet you can’t tell the difference?

RT

29

No need to apologize. I’m sure this isn’t the first time you’ve been incorrect.

Examples to disprove me other than Chablis, Chassagne, Puligny & hot buttered popcorn?

30

There ya go! It’s human decisions that enable or diminish the expression of terroir.

Not all sites are capable of showing much of interest in the wines. The great traditional sites are revered because they do. Over centuries grapes that performed particularly well at those sites were found and retained, those that didn’t make the cut were eliminated. You can’t just plant Merlot anywhere and expect it to show a unique site expression, but it’s certainly capable of greatness.

Things like picking late and battering with oak can certainly obscure site expression, though some sites can stand up to a lot of abuse. More often, I think, these are crutches used when there isn’t sufficient site expression, so the only way to make a noteworthy wine from the site is to pick late and rely on oak for complexity.

31

that’s what I keep telling the locals [cheers.gif]

and disagree on Chard
Do a tasting in Meursault and taste the difference in wines from near Volnay and wines from near Puligny
terroir

32

Zinfandel, plant it and make wine from it anywhere in the world and it will still taste terrible! [berserker.gif]

33

how 'bout Pinotage
( I know–like Muscadine also not a grape)

34

Guys - if you think Riesling really shows where it’s from, how often have you done blind tastings of Rieslings from specific regions and tried to identify them? Yeah, when you pour me something and talk about the granite and then pour me something else and talk about the limestone, I can follow you. But do it blind.

I should say I love Riesling. From Australia, Germany, Austria, Michigan, Washington and New York. I like it sweet and I like it dry. It’s the one grape I’m likely to pick up from pretty much anywhere.

But when is the last time you picked up a wine and got a whiff of that sulfury, gasoline-like petrol nose and thought to yourself “Hey! This must be Viognier!”

Doesn’t happen. Riesling is always Riesling. Just like John Wayne was always John Wayne. He never disappeared into a character and Riesling never does either.

35

When I read this, it made me stop and think. And I think I agree with you.

I need to drink more Sauv. Blanc. It really is wildly different from Napa Valley to South Africa to Bordeaux to Sancerre to NZ to Australia to … [cheers.gif]

I agree about Syrah, too. But, then again, I drink lots of Syrah so it’s easy for me to understand where you’re coming from.

I suspect this really boils down to: what do you drink the most? I bet folks who drink Cabernet Sauvignon frequently, from various regions across the world, can discern regional differences in how the grape expresses itself.

36

Brian,

I drink a lot of Cab and have for more than 35 years. I’ve attended many a blind tasting and I have been fooled many times.

P Hickner

37

Interesting. And you do think it’s because the grape doesn’t transmit terroir, and not because said terroirs are just so similar that it’s hard to tell them apart? (genuine question, as I don’t know enough about the terroirs potentially in question to opine one way or another).

38

Tokaj is generally a blend. and I bet there are plenty of folks who might argue that there’s a terroir component. (although I suppose you really meant Tokay)

39

I thought about that a bit after I posted, and I recalled comments about ripeness.
Without attempting to draw conclusions from anecdotal evidence, I’d say that there is an element of truth in observing that ripeness masks terroir. Extending this in the case of Cabernet, few appreciate the expression of pyrazines in red wine, whereas some prize it in the the parent grape of Cabernet Sauvignon as a white wine. Anyone who can get Cab Sauv beyond the stage of showing green pepper and tomato usually does.

My opinion is that Cabernet of the same ripeness, aged in oak barrels, is extremely hard to pin down in origin. That goes for Cabs made in France, Italy, Chile, California, Washington, or even Australia. The soils and wind conditions do seem to influence the tannins, but with modern wine making that can be erased.

Within Washington, I can easily tell the difference between a Red Mountain and a Walla Walla Syrah. The same influence is detectable in Cabs, but much less so.

P Hickner

40

oh I think if you were to taste nothing but Cabernet Sauvignon from across the world all you would really discover is the various levels of fear and acceptance of methoxypyrazines. [stirthepothal.gif]