Where's the Burgundy price sweet spot?

WINE TALK
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Michael,
I dont think anyone is in disagreement over the fact that young burgundy can be an enjoyable drink, and I agree that 2017s are a great candidate for opening young (although I feel they have closed up a little since release), but in my experience the true greatness of the wine develops with time in the bottle, the ethereal weightlessness with power that saturates your entire palate and explodes on the back of your throat, the unbelievable kaleidoscope of flavours and depth that can only be reached by age.
I have nothing but respect for you, your buying strategy and your commitment to burgundy, I only get allocated a small number of Rousseau CSJ every year and tend not to open them (although I would open a bottle if the cork was protruding and it was essentially free), I also have a great deal of respect for Tom Blach who has been drinking Burgundy a hell of a lot longer than me.

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Marcus…you being too polite; discussion of red burgundy needs to fight !!

Class will automatically ( and normally ) rule when consume young - because 20-30% new oak barrels vs 90-100% new oak barrels - bearing in mind that I am a firm believer that new oak integrate despite young age as there is no under-oak red except under-wine red.

Age will not automatically ( and will not normally ) rule when consume old ( or too old ).

It is a night-mare for me ( personal ) …to guess…any high-end reds…when will they become magical and decided to drink them young.

Mike Krama used to say : if you need to really know a wine, you need to own at least a case of 12 and drink them one by one at an interval of certain years. I practice what he said for some years and I prefer …not to wait. The best time to enjoy a red burgundy…is when young and when they become to reach the plateau age of becoming matured. When they are matured - often they will closed down after 30 minutes to maximum 45 minutes and turned muted.

I respect anyone who likes to drink old, old red burgundy and wait and wait…but just beware…

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This. I am lucky to live in France where it is not so hard to pick up 1-3 bottle lots of wines like these that have aged beautifully (though I admit not every such venture is so successful):

  • 1979 André Delorme Givry 1er Cru Clos du Cellier Aux Moines - France, Burgundy, Côte Chalonnaise, Givry 1er Cru (5/10/2021)
    This bottle started off inauspiciously when, trying to remove the seemingly intact cork with a regular corkscrew (without an assist from an ah-so or my misplaced Durand), I got it about 3/4 of the way out before it exploded out under pressure like a champagne cork, together with 10-15ml of wine. I was expecting the wine to be spoiled in some way, and the pale garnet/copper-tinged color did not increase my confidence (it looked like a Barolo of 50+ years), but from the outset it drank well as a PnP, with no evidence of trapped SO2 or other fizz, let alone spoilage. And the nose, wow: classic perfume of aged Burgundy, with fading red fruits, sous-bois, fresh leather, some floral notes and an attractively light whiff of merde. Silken on the palate, with no tannins to speak of and surprisingly ample sweet fruit on the attack but a nice jolt of acidity on the finish to keep it lively and balanced. It stayed fresh over the course of five hours, drinking nicely as an aperitif, then with a simple roast chicken and finally with an Époisses later in the evening. Sure, this was no grand cru and not the last word in Burgundian profundity, but it was bona fide 1er cru juice that, as recent auction purchase for €25 all-in, is my most serendipitous find so far this year. (91 pts.)
  • 2006 Château de Pommard Santenay Clos de Gatsulard - France, Burgundy, Côte de Beaune, Santenay (1/29/2021)
    What a serendipitous find: an at-peak Burg with an attractive nose of mixed red fruits, sandalwood, sous-bois, and just a hint of merde, with excellent poise in the mouth – at once weightless yet with ample flavor, of sweet red fruits on the attack followed by savory notes of earth, beef carpaccio, mixed spices and an herbal element. Impressive complexity that could get this wine mistaken for a Gevrey 1er, perhaps. Worked nicely as a pop-n-pour but started to decline after about 3 hours. At a hammer price of €17 (less than €22/$26 all-in delivered), this is my best value in over a year. (91 pts.)

In any case, the “sweet spot” has to be a wine within that part of your usual price range that you feel comfortable buying in – if you have stretched your budget to its limit for a particular bottle, then you will expect (and may receive) a sublime experience, but I wouldn’t call that a sweet spot. For me, while my Burgundy budget tends to range from $20-200 bottle (with rare deviations), the sweet spot is probably in the $30-$80 range. At that point there are some great options between e.g. famous producers’ humble bottlings (e.g. Barthod Bourgogne rouge for ~ $30), excellent wines from satellite/non-premium appellations (e.g. Berthaut-Gerbet Fixin 1ers/lieu-dits for ~$40, Lumpp Givry 1ers, Ch. de la Maltroye Chassagne rouge 1ers), or less well-known but upcoming producers’ Côte de Nuits 1ers (e.g. Jérome Chezeaux’s Vosne Suchots that I just bought for €69.50; or wines from Arlaud, Marchand-Tawse, or recently (I think – these I have mostly bought on scores and reports of a lessening of the oak regime) Drouhin-Laroze, and many others. I suppose part of hitting the sweet spot is enjoying the hunt and searching for bargains – it’s very easy to overpay for Burgundy (especially in the USA) at any price point.

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this thread is so interesting because the mindset of burgundy and wine in general is different than any other thing that I deal with day to day. I think we are generally all in agreement that the sweet spot in burgundy is FAR above the average wine drinker’s threshold for spending on a single bottle. no one said anything anywhere near the 30-40 range, it seems like the lowest estimates are at least $100+

here is my followup question though with that in mind: does this mean the average wine drinker is just SOL on ever experiencing a bottle of Burgundy that will really show them what the big deal is? are they doomed to think that burgundy is always just OK for the price?

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With proper storage and some degree of experience, and assuming a bottle is not corked or off- which does of course happen at times, I think the vast majority of opening experiences can impart knowledge and intellectual satisfaction plus at least some degree of pure enjoyment. But even then, truly magical moments are elusive.

Tom…thanks - very nice comments.

I am a born Chinese and educated in Western culture in Hong Kong in a Catholic school but as I am the youngest son in a big Chinese family I keep on my old fashioned thinking in my whole life ( or cultural background ).

What I am trying to say is : the exclusiveness and the elusiveness of a hard to come by magical moment of encountering in a bottle red burgundy …is …driving all the new rich in China (=Hong Kong ) to the insanity level never seen before.

Example : a Rouimer-Musginy is pricey and it is understandable - but a Bizot Bourgogne La Chapitre Rouge at an average price of 1,354 is more than insane.

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Mattstolz…were you with the ParkerB - when Rovoni replaced Parker for reviews in Burgundy wines ?

My short answer to your follow question is : it has everything or it has nothing (= Know-Nothingitis : in Rovoni term).

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winemaking and vineyard care has come a looong way in Burgundy so I think the average Joe stands a chance of drinking some pretty great wines at all pricing levels, Sometimes I drink a regional wine in awe of the beauty of the fruit and winemaking.
If you are talking about life changing bottles…, well that can be pretty elusive in Burgundy regardless of the size of your wallet. But I can say with 100% conviction that the winemaking today is better than any other time in history.

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Mattstolz - OK…let me give you an example ( or my personal experience ). I was served - blind - a bottle of red few years ago ( by a friend ITB ).

Wow…what was that - so silky and soft, seamless texture and mind blowing parfame. It was a Bizot Vosne ( I don’t remember the vintage year - but the wine was young ). Wine-searcher shows : average price - CA $1629 - Must have factor

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Marcus…my best DRC-RSV experience was a bottle from 1986. Regretably never have a chance to drink a 1978…red or white !!r

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sooo yes… if they have a connection?

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A few thoughts on this thread. Probably not much new to say from me, but…

  1. It is crucial to figure out what you “value” and what your goals are in this fraught area. Do you want drinking now? Do you want to build a library of older wines? What is your timeline realistically (I stopped buying in 2007).
  2. The old days were not any better. Even at the wineries in the '80s-07 wines were expensive and some impossible to obtain. (I visited Roumier 8 times in that period and never bought a bottle of Musigny; I knew it was an imposition, so took “lesser” stuff instead. So, you didn’t miss anything by being born later; it’s just unfounded nostalgia; relative income levels were lower too and the internet didn’t exist as a market place.
  3. The “magic” everyone seeks in Burgundy is from aged wines. (I’ve had producers apologize for only “too young” wines on restaurant lists there). I think this is a universal given. There is little perceivable difference in quality in young Burgundy or in barrel…certainly not enough to warrant dramatically higher prices.
  4. I’ve never had a Red Burgundy (and few whites, other than Premoxed wines) that were too old. Have had many that were too young, and I felt I should have waited. The big reveal for me over the years is just how long it takes for this stuff to show its magic…and how long they will keep trying to do so.
  5. Backfilling from auction, etc. on older vintages seems a good way to go to get to the aging goal. The values seem better, etc. etc. and you will have a better chance of really evaluating the topic of this thread…and other related issues drinking wines that can show what they become. (In fact, people might not even like what they become and have been wasting their money when a good villages wine would be fine.)
  6. Buying and holding…as a strategy takes patience and can be waiting for Godot. Obviously, as Alan Weinberg says, one way to make this less risky is to buy into the villages wines and , especially, into the “less expensive” 1er crus. I bought by producers vertically to do just that. At this point, I shudder to drink some of the grand crus I have; they are not worth the value to me; vis a vis the “lesser” wines.
  7. How you accomplish your goals is wholly a personal choice, based on your goals, your means and your experience with older “mature” wines from Burgundy. Impossible to even opine on this unless you know all of the above and put them in the blender. Burgundy is never cheap and will never be cheaper; these ARE the good old daze as Carly Simon sang. The cost is a function of so many things, only one of which is the reward for your efforts.
  8. Don’t pay the high premium to check on young wines…and by that I mean under 15 years old at a minimum. At this point, I think they “need” 20-25 years to show the magic, complexity, etc. from a decent vintage. I wish I had known this 30 years ago. I wouldn’t have had the patience, and wouldn’t have bought and aged. That can only guarantee more pleasure as you age…and maybe age too much.

Buy and try a few older wines…from the '90s and earlier. See if you like them, and then decide where the sweet spot is. Or if it even exists. That’s a crucial first step. If you like young pinot noir you are very lucky. There is plenty of it around the world, and, especially in Oregon.

FWIW

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The rub is that wines are different now than they were 30 years ago. I have no doubt that a 1980 DRC RC is better now than it was in 1983 or whenever it was released. Will a 2017 DRC RC be as much better in 2050 or whenever? I do think some wines are made the same as they’ve always been, but I think some are not. Will the “new” Gouges age as well as the old one?

There are a lot of factors, including climate change, changes in tastes, changes in winemaking, and lack of interest in buying wines for the next generation the way it’s always been done.

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My old master has finally spoken and very wisely…and I am listening… [worship.gif]

Merci - Stuart and I miss you… grouphug

My views express in this thread…is solely …for the purpose of supporting Michael C’s view to open and drink red burgundy bottles young and they are really not mine ( as I have no personal views but just love to open and share them anytime with my friends ). [truce.gif]

At my age : I prefer quietness, ten-thousand things would not disturbed me; I regret I have no long-time plan, and I will return to my old forest with my empty hands… [bye.gif]

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Who cares!! Until you have figured out your goals and limitations, etc…

figure them out first…and then figure out a strategy to get there…asking a thousand more questions won’t get you to the starting point of figuring out your personal goals…just inaction…and “paralysis by analysis”…

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Not really sure what you mean by that; the whole premise of the recent discussion is my consumption of young burgundy. In the end it doesn’t really matter; I as long they’re drinking well I’m going to leeo cracking them. I have enough that I’ll most likely be able to find out how they are in 30 years.

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This thread is about the “Burgundy…sweet spot” …how to figure it and how to get there.

It’s not about Burgundy, though, IMO. It’s about the purchaser and what his goal are and his timeline. Then maybe you can get some input on the question posed. But, not until that. I’m talking about a buying/collecting strategy…not your “consumption of young burgundy” or anyone’s.

Maybe I’ve misunderstood the initial question here…but I don’t think so. hitsfan

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I meant the recent last 20-30 posts.

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Like I said…burgundy wines is emotional and it is alright to fight for your rights with your views.

Stuart - really nice to see your post. Don’t disappear…

Hope one day we will have a chance to meet and share a bottle of wine.

Mostly like we will talk about the many things the past in the wine-boards and also in the presence - but all in laughter.

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Hope so, too, Peter…someday we’ll share that bottle. And, someday maybe Dr. Weinberg will join us…

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Yes …Dr. W is a very kind man who had once offer to send me a Rhys… [cheers.gif]

Please stay active !!