Whole cluster__Winemakers what do you think about this line?

WINE TALK
21

I’ve done it for all my reds, PV, Tempranillo, Syrah, Gamay Noir, and Cab Franc. I love the results of doing a little bit in each lot. The PV and Tempranillo saw about 20 percent, the syrah 50, the Gamay around 50 and the Cab Franc was something like 25. This year if I can get the grenache and syrah I have my eye on, I think the percentages will go up.

22

100% whole cluster 100% of the time. But it must be gently crushed (foot crushed) and intact clusters. Destemming and adding back the broken stems just gives you green, stemmy flavors and nasty tannins.

For me, it tempers our rather exuberant fruit we get up here, plus adds some great savory textures and interesting aromatics. As a bonus, the ferments never seem to get too hot, and the musts press out very nicely.

23

Fascinating to read everyone’s impressions/insights, thus far.

Check-out this–albeit expensive–approach, but one that I hadn’t heard of until watching Klaus Peter Keller describe how it was treated. It gets started at minute-marker 7:46 Klaus Peter Keller Part 1 - YouTube

Best,

Kenney

24

So, this brilliant winemaker considers wine as a cooked fruit juice. How sharp!

I bet his wines get favorably compared to 1990 La Tache by RP, then.

25

Say whot, Larry??? Now they’re not only sorting grapes on the sorting table…but doing the same for the stems as well??? That boggles my tiny mind.
Tom

26

I am aware of a winery that heats (cooks?) the stems to lignify them and then adds them back.

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

27

This is the greatest thing I’ve read in weeks!! Thank you.

28

One thing I really hope we can all do as an industry, is help define the difference between “whole cluster” vs simple “stem inclusion”, as they are not the same thing. The significance of “whole cluster” to us, is the added element of intercellular fermentation that is occurring from the whole berries remaining intact with the rachis, as well as, encasing the seeds- where the uber bitter tannins live. This is where the aromatics we all love in whole cluster ferments come from not to mention the beautiful fruit/floral characters. Why don’t we ever focus on/discuss that… why does it always have to be argument about stems?

29

We routinely use whole cluster in our Rhone ferments. Each year we seem to use more. All of our Syrah gets between 30-100% whole cluster. We are still experimenting with Grenache whole cluster, and seem to like it in the 30-50% range. We are undecided on Mourvedre whole cluster. Like Larry said above, we foot stomp, as we don’t want the carbonic fruit profile. We feel that the stems give a depth and earthiness to the wine that is extremely interesting. We never add stems back after going through the crusher/destemmer. That’s a recipe to make canned asparagus. Additionally, when you use stems, you have to be ok with the wines being tight upon release, as they will take 2-3 years to open.

One think I hear a lot about is “ripe stems.” We disagree that ripe stems = lignified stems. We feel that the only way to tell the percentage of stems is to taste the stems at crushing. They will have certain characteristics that we have recognized over the years. We have some vineyards that we routinely ferment 100% that have neon green stems and I wish I could do a “200% stem ferment.” We have other vineyards that have brown stems which if we go about 50%, the wine is canned asparagus. We have looked at various chemical components for a correlation i.e. pH, TA etc,heat accumulation, but have found its just trial and error as well as knowing your vineyards/blocks. It is also interesting to note that many, particularly in the N Rhone, Alain Graillot for example, ferment on green stems and achieve remarkable results. One random thing about stems is how they show black pepper with Syrah and white pepper with Grenache. I used to say that if a fermentation didn’t scare the heck out of me during fermentation (excessive greenness) we didn’t use enough stems. Now we know that the wine will be green for 6 monte or so, then integrate, similar to oak integration.

As our harvest t shirts say “Stems Rule!”

Greg Harrington
Gramercy Cellars

30

Hank, I’m not sure how wide-spread the practice is (foot crushing whole clusters), but I wonder if you’re familiar with the Barolo producer GB Burlotto? His Monvigliero wine is famous for being made in that process, and is perhaps the only Piedmont wine that is.

31

Is a whole cluster fermentation really that similar to carbonic maceration? My understanding of carbonic maceration is that it’s made in a limited oxygen environment throughout fermentation. Whole cluster fermentation may start with limited oxygen, but these eventually get punched down or pumped over, right?

32

I do some whole cluster fermentation. Not a lot. I always think I should do more but then don’t. Probably will experiment more in the future. The idea that stems would be bad is absurd. They can be overdone but I wonder if people just work their wines too much in fermentation and chalk it up to the stems being too green or astringent when a lighter touch might have been better.

33

Yes. Absolutely. I’m sort of fuzzy at chemistry, perhaps Larry or somebody edumacated can weigh in, but cold soaking brings in some of the more delicate fruit elements and aromatics that get missed if you go right into a hot ferment whereas pectic enzymes break down the skins and cause those compounds to dominate, mainly pushing fruit and tannin to the forefront at the expense of some of the ‘terroir’. Combine that with fruit on the far side of ripeness and some loamy soils and you get the ‘California’ recipe.

34

Great point. Also, the ferments tend to be cooler and longer, caps larger, totally different beast to work with than the crushed and destemmed. There is an assumption that more stem = more tannin, but that isn’t always the case. Used in the proper proportion for the wine, they really do bring another layer of beauty. Takes the wine to Level 6.

35

Great, great read guys - thank you -

A question; At what point of the stems being trimmed does the process turn into whole berry fermentation compared to whole cluster fermentation?

36

FIFY, Ian. [cheers.gif]

37

The winemaker will either keep the cluster fully intact or run the cluster through the crusher/destemmer, which removes the entire rakus (stem.) So if a fermentation is wine is 50% whole cluster, there are 2 ways to get there. Do one tank with 100% whole cluster and another tank 100% destemmed. Then the wines are blended. Or, you can fill 1/2 the tank with whole clusters, foot stomp, and then crush destemmed fruit on top of that. (Or vice versa, but we prefer the whole clusters on the bottom of the tank.)

Also there is a difference between whole berry and whole cluster. Whole berry means that the individual berries themselves are not crushed. It leads to a more fruit forward wine and sometimes carbonic maceration. Crushing the berries, by foot stomping or other means, tend to give a more earthy wine. Also, with whole berry, the wine tends to go into the barrel “wet” i.e. not fully fermented. You will see the brix level increase during pressing as the unfermented berries are pressed. Finishing the fermentation in barrel can help oak integration if using new oak.

So the thinking goes like this:

  1. Will we use whole cluster with this fruit?
  2. Will we ferment it 100% whole cluster and then blend with destemmed fruit or do a mix in the tank during fermentation?
  3. How fully do we want to crush all the berries? Whole berry, light crush, fully crushed?
38

No donkey balls in this thread. Been very helpful.

39

Great thread. Great info. Thanks all.

40

Footstomped some whole-cluster Grenache and Syrah with Steve Edmunds last fall - been awhile since I’d done that. Took some time to get used to that cold fruit in the bins, but the stems were easier on my ankles than the last time I’d footstomped whole clusters. Hope the wine doesn’t have any “interesting aromatics” from my feet! [wink.gif]