Whole cluster__Winemakers what do you think about this line?

[Dan_Rinke]

Footstomped some whole-cluster Grenache and Syrah with Steve Edmunds last fall - been awhile since I’d done that. Took some time to get used to that cold fruit in the bins, but the stems were easier on my ankles than the last time I’d footstomped whole clusters. Hope the wine doesn’t have any “interesting aromatics” from my feet! [/quote]

Is that where native yeasts come from?

[Keith_Levenberg]

I’ve never heard of anyone eating oak staves either, but people don’t mind that in their wine.

[H_Wallace_Jr]

We are 100% whole cluster on all of our reds (7 Mourvèdre and 1 Petite Sirah).

With 100% whole cluster, I feel like babysit the press a little more than I would if we gettin’ all fancy and destemmed-- But that could just be a combo of being neurotic and thinking it is a good time / place to sneak a beer(s).

We usually have a high % of whole berry fermentation (minimal to low treading), but it varies by lot and by vintage based on the qualities of the fruit. I think the % of whole berry greatly affects the sensation of whole-clustery-ness vs potential stemmy-ness

Back to the OP- I’d be leery of people that compare wine with spaghetti sauce. That guy sounds reckless!

[Roberto_Rogness]

Hardy, you make seven DIFFERENT Mourvèdre bottlings?

[H_Wallace_Jr]

@Roberto Rogness

Hardy, you make seven DIFFERENT Mourvèdre bottlings?

Yessir. Crazy train. In 2013 we made 6 single vineyard and 1 “Especial”

[gene_keenan]

@Dave Butner

I’m doing more and more whole cluster fermentations with Syrah - up to about 40% in 2013 and I really like the results, as I find I get more earthy and spice components - both of which I like in Syrah.

Putting tomato stems in marina? I haven’t tried it, but sounds interesting.

The tomato is part of the deadly nightshade family and have always believed the stems and leaves to be deadly poisonous. Turns out I and many others were wrong including Rodale:
http://www.rodalenews.com/research-feed/tomato-leaves-edible-after-all-these-years

[Chris_Seiber]

An offshoot question to this excellent discussion: I seem to mostly hear of stem inclusion in pinots and Rhones. Does anyone do stem inclusion in Bordeaux varietals? Or the major Italian red varietals (Sangiovese and Nebbiolo)? How about zinfandel? Tempranillo?

If the answer to all or some of those is no, what is the quick answer for why not? Is it that those (other than zin I guess) are already more tannic varieties than pinot and Rhones?

[Peter_Chiu]

@Michael Lewis

Paging Zylberberg and/or Richard Jennings.

Also, pretty soon it is not going to make any sense to say you are “paging” anyone. In fact, it probably should be dropped from my vocabulary now.

Very interesting discussions - thanks.

Paging Richard Jennings + 1.

[Hank_Beckmeyer]

@Chris Seiber

An offshoot question to this excellent discussion: I seem to mostly hear of stem inclusion in pinots and Rhones. Does anyone do stem inclusion in Bordeaux varietals? Or the major Italian red varietals (Sangiovese and Nebbiolo)? How about zinfandel? Tempranillo?

If the answer to all or some of those is no, what is the quick answer for why not? Is it that those (other than zin I guess) are already more tannic varieties than pinot and Rhones?

Chris, my Home Vineyard bottling has tempranillo and tannat in it, along with grenache and syrah, and 100% stem inclusion (whole cluster). Works great.

And I do a bottling with about 50% nebbiolo too, also 100% whole cluster.

I’d love to find some interesting Cab Franc to try whole cluster. That might be testing the limits!

[larry_schaffer]

@H Wallace Jr

We are 100% whole cluster on all of our reds (7 Mourvèdre and 1 Petite Sirah).

With 100% whole cluster, I feel like babysit the press a little more than I would if we gettin’ all fancy and destemmed-- But that could just be a combo of being neurotic and thinking it is a good time / place to sneak a beer(s).

We usually have a high % of whole berry fermentation (minimal to low treading), but it varies by lot and by vintage based on the qualities of the fruit. I think the % of whole berry greatly affects the sensation of whole-clustery-ness vs potential stemmy-ness

Back to the OP- I’d be leery of people that compare wine with spaghetti sauce. That guy sounds reckless!

Only 4 Mourvedre vineyards for me this year . . . I’m slacking!!!

Gotta believe that the fact you don’t do much foot treading leads to a more ‘carbonic’ type end product, right? I know you don’t keep your wines in ‘storage’ (oak, concrete, whatever you ‘new kids’ are using these days ) so this would make the wine more ‘accessible’ younger, right?

I tread the heck out of mine, but I’m after a different ‘end result’ me thinks . . .

Cheers!

[Ian_Brand]

I do a Tempranillo for the Pierces that’s about 15% whole cluster, the rest whole berry. Any more and I fear it’ll taste too reedy – I like for there to be the fruit present to balance the clusters. I also do a petite sirah that’s about 30% whole cluster that has some fans. Zin has never seemed like a grape, to me, that would benefit, but then I’m confused by all the attention that zin gets.

[John_Morris]

@Chris Seiber

An offshoot question to this excellent discussion: I seem to mostly hear of stem inclusion in pinots and Rhones. Does anyone do stem inclusion in Bordeaux varietals? Or the major Italian red varietals (Sangiovese and Nebbiolo)?

I’m not sure, but I think Burlotto includes stems in the Monvigliero Barolo, which is foot-pressed and sees macerations of up to 60 days. But everything about that wine is outside the norms.

[Richard_Malloy]

I mentioned GB upthread as that’s my understanding of the Monvigliero vinification. It seems unlikely he’s the only one, but I don’t know of another Piemonte producer who does this. I really like the wine, though I’ve only tasted young bottles (most recently the '09 . . . which, um, needs time).

[John_D_Zuccarino]

@Greg Harrington

@Thomas Keim

Great, great read guys - thank you -

A question; At what point of the stems being trimmed does the process turn into whole berry fermentation compared to whole cluster fermentation?

The winemaker will either keep the cluster fully intact or run the cluster through the crusher/destemmer, which removes the entire rakus (stem.) So if a fermentation is wine is 50% whole cluster, there are 2 ways to get there. Do one tank with 100% whole cluster and another tank 100% destemmed. Then the wines are blended. Or, you can fill 1/2 the tank with whole clusters, foot stomp, and then crush destemmed fruit on top of that. (Or vice versa, but we prefer the whole clusters on the bottom of the tank.)

Also there is a difference between whole berry and whole cluster. Whole berry means that the individual berries themselves are not crushed. It leads to a more fruit forward wine and sometimes carbonic maceration. Crushing the berries, by foot stomping or other means, tend to give a more earthy wine. Also, with whole berry, the wine tends to go into the barrel “wet” i.e. not fully fermented. You will see the brix level increase during pressing as the unfermented berries are pressed. Finishing the fermentation in barrel can help oak integration if using new oak.

So the thinking goes like this:

1. Will we use whole cluster with this fruit?
2. Will we ferment it 100% whole cluster and then blend with destemmed fruit or do a mix in the tank during fermentation?
3. How fully do we want to crush all the berries? Whole berry, light crush, fully crushed?

Greg,

Outstanding post…

Zillions of names, styles that involve stems and berries… Each grape must has a profile I often think anything more added via contact or exposure in any form is like adding a garnish to the meal … Stems that I have worked with always have given me a pepper or spice note…

Whole-cluster Gewürztraminer for a clean aromatic gentle wine full of round perfect angles… Also if you are not going to do a ML whole-cluster pressing via cold carbonic maceration gives you a high risk wine/reward, as far as dealing with VA s …

So depending on the intensity of the spice of the stems, depending if the wine is going to do a ML, depending on how he VA demons treat your wine, stems are wonderful, like anything else in proper measure, this is where the art of making wine shines…


Great thread… Cheers !!!

[H_Wallace_Jr]

@larry schaffer

@H Wallace Jr

We are 100% whole cluster on all of our reds (7 Mourvèdre and 1 Petite Sirah).

With 100% whole cluster, I feel like babysit the press a little more than I would if we gettin’ all fancy and destemmed-- But that could just be a combo of being neurotic and thinking it is a good time / place to sneak a beer(s).

We usually have a high % of whole berry fermentation (minimal to low treading), but it varies by lot and by vintage based on the qualities of the fruit. I think the % of whole berry greatly affects the sensation of whole-clustery-ness vs potential stemmy-ness

Gotta believe that the fact you don’t do much foot treading leads to a more ‘carbonic’ type end product, right? I know you don’t keep your wines in ‘storage’ (oak, concrete, whatever you ‘new kids’ are using these days ) so this would make the wine more ‘accessible’ younger, right?

@H Wallace Jr

Depends on the wine and the fruit. Santa Barbara Highlands often tends to get more semi-carb, but other vineyards like Shake Ridge and the Antle (Chalone) get less. Yes- the more semi-carb are accessible and bottled earlier. The other stuff gets about 10 mos in barrel / demi muid.

I tread the heck out of mine, but I’m after a different ‘end result’ me thinks . . .

Stylistically different, but I know we are both trying to take it down to funky town.

Above it was asked about BDX varieties-
Arnot-Roberts did 1 100% WC Cab a few years back- Vare Vineyard?
Enfield’s 2012 Cazadero Cab is 50% (and stunning).

For the non-Rhones- Hank’s La Clarine Home Vineyard is f’n amazing

I think Rorick did 100% WC Sangio-

[Paul_Miller]

@Ian Brand

I do a Tempranillo for the Pierces that’s about 15% whole cluster, the rest whole berry. Any more and I fear it’ll taste too reedy – I like for there to be the fruit present to balance the clusters. I also do a petite sirah that’s about 30% whole cluster that has some fans. Zin has never seemed like a grape, to me, that would benefit, but then I’m confused by all the attention that zin gets.

But a lot of Zins have that pepper and spice characteristic. Is whole cluster not common with Zins?

[Guillaume_Deschamps]

@TomHill

Say whot, Larry??? Now they’re not only sorting grapes on the sorting table…but doing the same for the stems as well??? That boggles my tiny mind.

I know of at least one producer in the Southern Rhône who told me he includes only the ripe(st) stems, and not the green ones. It’s apparently possible to tell by the mere look of it (kinda bright green for unripe ones, brownish for ripe one, from what I understand). It made sense to me when explained this way.

[Peter_Chiu]

@Guillaume Deschamps

@TomHill

Say whot, Larry??? Now they’re not only sorting grapes on the sorting table…but doing the same for the stems as well??? That boggles my tiny mind.

I know of at least one producer in the Southern Rhône who told me he includes only the ripe(st) stems, and not the green ones. It’s apparently possible to tell by the mere look of it (kinda bright green for unripe ones, brownish for ripe one, from what I understand). It made sense to me when explained this way.

My understanding is ( to be sure ) they often take a very small bite of the stem to taste ( or test ) its ripeness.

[John_D_Zuccarino]

@Peter Chiu

@Guillaume Deschamps

@TomHill

Say whot, Larry??? Now they’re not only sorting grapes on the sorting table…but doing the same for the stems as well??? That boggles my tiny mind.

I know of at least one producer in the Southern Rhône who told me he includes only the ripe(st) stems, and not the green ones. It’s apparently possible to tell by the mere look of it (kinda bright green for unripe ones, brownish for ripe one, from what I understand). It made sense to me when explained this way.

My understanding is ( to be sure ) they often take a very small bite of the stem to taste ( or test ) its ripeness.

Yes I guess it’s a way … Lignification, if any meaningful development of ripe stems, not green tannins the polymerization is essential , green or ripe stem tannins are second in astringency to seeds… These kind of tannins along with polyphenols and polysaccharides in combination with heat…

we must think ripe stems and now the heat catalyst as to contact time … Each grape genotypes expresses contact in its unique way via duration, ripeness and geomatics expression that the grape has the propensity to deliver… Cheers !!!

[Peter_Chiu]

merci…John