Why did Screaming Eagle Scrap 17's if there is no problem

[Eric_LaMasters]

Ive been called a troll for having the balls to say that 17’s are suspect.

Could someone please explain then why Screaming Eagle whose vineyards are right in the heart of wine country can feel strongly enough to scrap the entire vintage yet nobody else in surrounding area as of yet done the same thing ?

I was not there and dont know the topology so are Se vineyards in a unique location that they were the only one affected ? or are my thoughts actually valid and im not a troll for daring to suggest ?

A friend of mine emailed me recently about the PC situation and how many people were called trolls and haters for doubting John Fox

If you don’t know why…please, stop speculating without data. You’re starting to sound like that guy on the corner with the sign that reads “The end is upon us” that is screaming at the top of his lungs.

Cayuse scrapped their entire vintage due to bad corks a year ago…many high end producers make the calls for different reasons. Unless you have the data…please stop speculating. I don’t know or care how the vintages are viewed…but speculation like this is as useful to me as the tabloids that tell me that the Aliens took Elvis home.

Let’s also not lump Premier Cru in with whatever reason Screaming Eagle didn’t make a 2017 vintage. Bringing that up makes zero sense, and doesn’t rationalize trolling. I also don’t think your post is trolling either. It’s basis is certainly interesting, and as noted above, caused some consternation in Napa. I HOPE they are transparent about their reasoning.

FWIW, I have tasted 2017 Tench Vineyard and 2017 Wilde Foote Vixen from Bevan, and there is zero smoke in either. Two vineyards either right next to, or a stone’s throw from Screamer.

One small correction, Ian. Not to be pedantic, but the Wildfoote Vineyard is way down in the Stags Leap District, a few miles south from SE and Tench.

[larry_schaffer]

Let’s also remember, as has been stated in other threads, that smoke taint detection can be quite elusive. You can run tests to see if the chemical markers are there, but if they are ‘bound’ and get ‘released’ as the wine ages, you may experience taint when you thought you were okay. THAT is one of the biggest challenges here . . .

And many of these wineries that may be affected simply cannot ‘scrap’ an entire vintage - that’s not how their economics work. Perhaps SE can and will - at least part of their production - but many others will not have that luxury. And no matter how good 2018’s may be, wineries will need to sell their 2015s, 2016s and possibly 2017s before you’re allowed a sniff.

Potentially tough situation indeed . . .

[JohnP]

There are some lovely 2011s. The Corison Cabernet Sauvignon is amazing, to name one example. There are more.

I find 2011 tougher for Pinot Noir than for Cabernet - by a long shot.

Another example of great cab in 11’ was Spottswoode’s estate. I think the bad PR engulfed several sleepers which I’ve been slowly acquiring on the secondary market. They’re showing incredible ageability. I’d bet the 91-94pt review of 11’ SE by Parker will be overturned by LPB in another 5-10 years with 2-3pt increase.

[Steve_Crawford]

There are some lovely 2011s. The Corison Cabernet Sauvignon is amazing, to name one example. There are more.

I find 2011 tougher for Pinot Noir than for Cabernet - by a long shot.

Another example of great cab in 11’ was Spottswoode’s estate. I think the bad PR engulfed several sleepers which I’ve been slowly acquiring on the secondary market. They’re showing incredible ageability. I’d bet the 91-94pt review of 11’ SE by Parker will be overturned by LPB in another 5-10 years with 2-3pt increase.

so you’re predicting LPB will inflate scores? way to go out on a limb there

[JohnP]

Ive been called a troll for having the balls to say that 17’s are suspect.

I was not there and dont know the topology so are Se vineyards in a unique location that they were the only one affected ? or are my thoughts actually valid and im not a troll for daring to suggest ?

What is your fixation with 2017 California Cabs? Most of us don’t care.

I would be interested to know your rationale here

[JohnP]

There are some lovely 2011s. The Corison Cabernet Sauvignon is amazing, to name one example. There are more.

I find 2011 tougher for Pinot Noir than for Cabernet - by a long shot.

Another example of great cab in 11’ was Spottswoode’s estate. I think the bad PR engulfed several sleepers which I’ve been slowly acquiring on the secondary market. They’re showing incredible ageability. I’d bet the 91-94pt review of 11’ SE by Parker will be overturned by LPB in another 5-10 years with 2-3pt increase.

so you’re predicting LPB will inflate scores? way to go out on a limb there

Nothing to do with her scoring inflation, I just meant that she’s now at the helm and will be the deciding vote when that wine is reviewed again. Parker technically never gave it a final score, just a range.

[Al_Osterheld]

In 2008 [edited to correct typo], there were wineries that tried various methods to minimize or remove smoke taint and thought they had been successful only to have it return months after bottling. That’s the sense in which it can be elusive. It’s not elusive during or after fermentation because maceration and fermentation break down glycosides (the non-volatile components that hide the smoke taint). It’s true it only gets worse from there, but it’s obvious at that point.

My own approach would be like David’s, because I buy producers more than vintages and I also enjoy natural vintage variations (but not the unnatural impact of smoke).

-Al

[Steve_Crawford]

candor is never unappreciated. im not saying a producer needs to say ‘17 sucked, but just describe it with honesty. this doesn’t mean phrases like ‘17 allowed for some interesting, elegant wines’ or other IPOB dog-whistle type bs.

[David_Bu3ker]

So only monster Cabs need apply for you Steve?

[blarmston]

And no matter how good 2018’s may be, wineries will need to sell their 2015s, 2016s and possibly 2017s before you’re allowed a sniff.

It would be interesting to see how some estates would approach that. I, for one, would be extremely disappointed if that were the case. In my mind, that is penalizing the consumer for their inability to sell a particular vintage, and that would not sit well at all. I totally get it from their standpoint (its a business of course, and businesses need to clear inventory and recoup costs), but if that practice were to become widespread, I would take my dollars elsewhere. There are simply too many viable options out there to purchase, and I would consider it short-term thinking on their part, with negative longer term implications…

[CJ_Beazley]

What will the going rate be for a bottle of possibly smoke tainted declassified Screagle be?
*assuming they bulk it out

[Bdklein]

There are some lovely 2011s. The Corison Cabernet Sauvignon is amazing, to name one example. There are more.

I find 2011 tougher for Pinot Noir than for Cabernet - by a long shot.

Another example of great cab in 11’ was Spottswoode’s estate. I think the bad PR engulfed several sleepers which I’ve been slowly acquiring on the secondary market. They’re showing incredible ageability. I’d bet the 91-94pt review of 11’ SE by Parker will be overturned by LPB in another 5-10 years with 2-3pt increase.

So you prefer the 11 over the 12 13 14? The professional reviewers don’t -if it matters to you. It does to me.

[larry_schaffer]

Bruce,

Which professional reviewers? When did they taste them, i.e. how long after bottling?

2011 certainly has been a ‘sleeper’ year for many. I can tell you that down here in SB County, where it remained cold but we did not receive as much rain as they did up north, the rhones are drop dead gorgeous . . .

And are you saying that you base your purchasing decisions on what critics have to say? If so, that’s not a ‘knock’ on you whatsoever - just curious.

Cheers!

[Bdklein]

Bruce,

Which professional reviewers? When did they taste them, i.e. how long after bottling?

2011 certainly has been a ‘sleeper’ year for many. I can tell you that down here in SB County, where it remained cold but we did not receive as much rain as they did up north, the rhones are drop dead gorgeous . . .

And are you saying that you base your purchasing decisions on what critics have to say? If so, that’s not a ‘knock’ on you whatsoever - just curious.

Cheers!

Vinous and Wine Advocate. I don’t subscribe but have a friend who does.

And I don’t buy based on reviewers. But it matters to me what they say-especially for Napa/Sonoma for 2011. I’d still like to know if that person prefers the 11 over the others.

I don’t buy much wine these days at all, as an aside .

[P_Intag]

In 2011, there were wineries that tried various methods to minimize or remove smoke taint and thought they had been successful only to have it return months after bottling. That’s the sense in which it can be elusive. It’s not elusive during or after fermentation because maceration and fermentation break down glycosides (the non-volatile components that hide the smoke taint). It’s true it only gets worse from there, but it’s obvious at that point.

My own approach would be like David’s, because I buy producers more than vintages and I also enjoy natural vintage variations (but not the unnatural impact of smoke).

-Al

Fires were not the problem in 2011. Cool vintage was the problem. You must be talking about 2008.

[Al_Osterheld]

That was a typo, I meant 2008 but the side discussion of 2011 caused a CPU fault. Thanks for pointing out my error, didn’t make sense as written.

—Al

[JohnP]

There are some lovely 2011s. The Corison Cabernet Sauvignon is amazing, to name one example. There are more.

I find 2011 tougher for Pinot Noir than for Cabernet - by a long shot.

Another example of great cab in 11’ was Spottswoode’s estate. I think the bad PR engulfed several sleepers which I’ve been slowly acquiring on the secondary market. They’re showing incredible ageability. I’d bet the 91-94pt review of 11’ SE by Parker will be overturned by LPB in another 5-10 years with 2-3pt increase.

So you prefer the 11 over the 12 13 14? The professional reviewers don’t -if it matters to you. It does to me.

I was agreeing with David’s comment that there were some lovely 11’ cabs. SW’s 12,13,&14’ were all better out the gate, but when you factor in 11’ is today 50% less on the auction market, its value is pretty damn good value which is relative to my purchasing in CA. Plus, I prefer older Napa cab (20+ years), so the cooler weather IMO will only help this particular wine’s ageability. Btw, Janis R gave this 18.5/20 and though she is not as known for rating Napa, I trust her reviewing of old world-style wines. It was Parker who said SW is the Chateau Margaux of Napa, so my warped deductive reasoning concludes, it was and will be a great wine.

[Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m]

It would be nice to see a French(ish) model of pricing where prices fluctuate with (perceived/actual) quality of the vintage. … well, I guess that’s kind of N/A for me, but still …

[Dave_Nerland]

I was at Lokoya on Sunday and if my memory is correct, I was told they bulked out their 2017 juice. It takes deep pockets to make these types of decisions. Beautiful facility.

[Bdklein]

Another example of great cab in 11’ was Spottswoode’s estate. I think the bad PR engulfed several sleepers which I’ve been slowly acquiring on the secondary market. They’re showing incredible ageability. I’d bet the 91-94pt review of 11’ SE by Parker will be overturned by LPB in another 5-10 years with 2-3pt increase.

So you prefer the 11 over the 12 13 14? The professional reviewers don’t -if it matters to you. It does to me.

I was agreeing with David’s comment that there were some lovely 11’ cabs. SW’s 12,13,&14’ were all better out the gate, but when you factor in 11’ is today 50% less on the auction market, its value is pretty damn good value which is relative to my purchasing in CA. Plus, I prefer older Napa cab (20+ years), so the cooler weather IMO will only help this particular wine’s ageability. Btw, Janis R gave this 18.5/20 and though she is not as known for rating Napa, I trust her reviewing of old world-style wines. It was Parker who said SW is the Chateau Margaux of Napa, so my warped deductive reasoning concludes, it was and will be a great wine.

That’s very insightful in terms of the the market and your particular opinion of the wine. Nice to find a Napa can you like and at a (relative) bargain price .