Xinomavro, Mencia, Nerello Mascalese, ???????

[James_Billy]

I agree on the Nebbiolo comparison with xinomavro (I made the comparison above before seeing your reply) and that NM is quite distinctive. I do find mencia hard to nail down. You mention pinot and gamay, I’ve also heard it being compared with syrah.

Commonalities? None by taste, but geographically they all come from Mediterranean countries, so would tend to have a sunny disposition

I’d say xinomavro is more like a tannat, but that’s just me. Mencia to me feels more like syrah mixed with gamay, and the nerellos (yes, both of them) are their own thing.

Otto says Mencia is nothing like ayrah, so you must be wrong.

[James_Billy]

Commonalities? None by taste, but geographically they all come from Mediterranean countries, so would tend to have a sunny disposition

Tongue-in-cheek, I know, but a good excuse to go into some level of detail on this…
Sure, Sicily is right in the middle of the Mediterranean, but the climate and weather/growing conditions of Nerello Mascalese’s best terroirs across and around Etna all have very strong continental and mountain climate aspects. The altitude, for one thing, as many of the best vineyards lie between 500 and 1000 metres ATSL. Also, Piano Battaglia on Etna itself and the nearby Madonie range have ski resorts.
Both Bierzo and Ribeira Sacra are far closer to the Atlantic, which, unlike the Mediterranean, does have a considerable influence on viticulture there. Both could be characterised as fully continental/cool climates.
Naoussa sprawls across the foothills of Mount Vermio and is fully continental, although Fytia and Trilofos, its two southernmost great terroirs, tend to show some Mediterranean influence. However, Polla Nera, a mere 20-25 km away right across at the northern end, can be relatively glacial in comparison… Naoussa is a fascinating place. As for Xynomavro’s other two major growing areas, both Goumenissa and (to a somewhat lesser extent, I think) Amyntaio can be hot in the summer, but winters are, as a rule, quite harsh.

Fantastic level of detail and knowledge. This really enriches this thread.

Commonalities? Not French. Coolish climate in countries thought to be hot. All make great wine. All lesser known and can only grow in popularity as Barolo and Burgundy get ever more popular and expensive.

[Dav3_Dyr0ff]

Many of the mencia wines I’ve had and enjoyed, whether from RS or Bierzo, have an exceptional (that is, unusual in the body of red wines I drink) quality to them that I will describe as some combination of “freshness” or “juiciness,” which probably isn’t descriptive to others but it’s how they strike me. In terms of similarities, the other variety in which I often taste this quality is mondeuse from Savoie.

[Paul_abbott]

I find that mencia/Bierzo has more in common with Cabernet Franc than those suggested, it is normally not too heavy, can be pleasingly aromatic, and unless Reserva can have a grassy crunchy flavour profile that reminds me of something from Saumur.

[James_Billy]

Isn’t "herbal’ just a polite way to describe underripe flavours.

I love cab franc, too.

[Otto_Forsberg]

Can’t remember me tasting any herbaceous / underripe flavors or pyrazines in Mencía - and in a warm spot like Bierzo that would actually sound really odd. With Bierzo wines I’ve had more problems with excessive than sufficient ripeness.

[Oliver_McCrum]

You may or not see any similarities between these grapes, but which one(s) do you prefer and why? Is there another a similar grape that you like.

I see them as similar in some respects to pinot, nebbiolo and gamay, but, especially the first two, are still a bit niche compared to pinot and nebbiolo.

Yes, yes, yes, stupid question. Blah, blah, blah…

Not stupid.

Someone should invent a wine version of Pandora; if you like Pinot Noir you will like these other varieties.

[brigcampbell]

You may or not see any similarities between these grapes, but which one(s) do you prefer and why? Is there another a similar grape that you like.

I see them as similar in some respects to pinot, nebbiolo and gamay, but, especially the first two, are still a bit niche compared to pinot and nebbiolo.

Yes, yes, yes, stupid question. Blah, blah, blah…

Not stupid.

Someone should invent a wine version of Pandora; if you like Pinot Noir you will like these other varieties.

If you like Pinot Noir and southern Italy then there are Nerello Mascalese wines in your wheel house.

[Keith_Levenberg]

Someone should invent a wine version of Pandora; if you like Pinot Noir you will like these other varieties.

CellarTracker has millions of data points it could use to power that algorithm and probably nail some recs to a way more specific level than grape variety…

[Markus_S]

Many of the mencia wines I’ve had and enjoyed, whether from RS or Bierzo, have an exceptional (that is, unusual in the body of red wines I drink) quality to them that I will describe as some combination of “freshness” or “juiciness,” which probably isn’t descriptive to others but it’s how they strike me. In terms of similarities, the other variety in which I often taste this quality is mondeuse from Savoie.

I can see that, depending on the style you get, which can range from the more grapey to ones with more granite structure.

[BenjaminL]

I planted Xinomavro in an experimental block in Rutherford in 2017. I got my first barrel in 2019. It is a very slow ripening grape- it was the last thing picked and was only 23 brix. The tannins are huge, and the aromas are peculiar (cherry and orange blossoms like Pinot noir, but also briny olive cinnamon). It has practically no color so it gets blended with Syrah quite often. It will need a lot of aging and I worry the color will brick before it’s ready.
This year I’m petitioning the TTB to recognize it as a grape name for labeling.

[Otto_Forsberg]

I planted Xinomavro in an experimental block in Rutherford in 2017. I got my first barrel in 2019. It is a very slow ripening grape- it was the last thing picked and was only 23 brix. The tannins are huge, and the aromas are peculiar (cherry and orange blossoms like Pinot noir, but also briny olive cinnamon). It has practically no color so it gets blended with Syrah quite often. It will need a lot of aging and I worry the color will brick before it’s ready.

Why blend the variety and not celebrate for what it is? Xinomavro is like Nebbiolo, i.e. rather pale in color. If I’m buying a Xinomavro, I’d expect it to be pale and a brick hue wouldn’t be a problem. However, a dark, concentrated Xinomavro would only raise eyebrows.

After all, when people are paying 100s of dollars for a Barolo or Barbaresco, they are not expecting an inky, opaque juggernaut, yet they’ll still expect the wine to be tannic and muscular.

[BenjaminL]

Why blend the variety and not celebrate for what it is? Xinomavro is like Nebbiolo, i.e. rather pale in color. If I’m buying a Xinomavro, I’d expect it to be pale and a brick hue wouldn’t be a problem. However, a dark, concentrated Xinomavro would only raise eyebrows.

After all, when people are paying 100s of dollars for a Barolo or Barbaresco, they are not expecting an inky, opaque juggernaut, yet they’ll still expect the wine to be tannic and muscular.

I’m definitely not the expert, but Xinomavro blends are pretty traditional from what I’ve read. In my case, I cofermented it with Syrah to aid with color and soften the palate. Those goals align with my Napa palate, surely, but I’m not in Macedonia or Piedmont for that matter.

[Tvrtko_C]

I’m definitely not the expert, but Xinomavro blends are pretty traditional from what I’ve read.

Absolutely true. In fact, outside Naoussa (and, as a matter of fact, often in Naoussa as well), Xynomavro is mostly blended with other varieties: with Negoska in Goumenissa, with Stavrato and Krasato in Rapsani, with Merlot and, in at least one instance known to me but probably more, Syrah in Naoussa itself.

[Tvrtko_C]

If I’m buying a Xinomavro, I’d expect it to be pale and a brick hue wouldn’t be a problem. However, a dark, concentrated Xinomavro would only raise eyebrows.

Allowing for the fact that Xynomavro is indeed generally not exactly the darkest, most thickly coloured wine around, and assuming, naturally, that there is quite a broad spectrum between “pale”, “brick hue” and “dark, concentrated”, my impression is that Xynomavro covers a somewhat broader chromatic range than just “pale and brick hue”, also depending on where it is grown. Even in Naoussa itself, the wines from the south end tend to sport a deeper colour than those from a little higher up Mount Vermio or those from the north, and that’s just Naoussa. You’re also looking at a number of different soil types, terroirs etc. Other than that, I guess choices people make in the vineyard and in the cellar probably have something to do with it as well.

[Oliver_McCrum]

Someone should invent a wine version of Pandora; if you like Pinot Noir you will like these other varieties.

CellarTracker has millions of data points it could use to power that algorithm and probably nail some recs to a way more specific level than grape variety…

It would be extremely useful. I’m a bit busy but someone should do it, with wine types, varieties or even individual wines. It would encourage people to try different things, grapes they haven’t heard of. (There are a lot of them in Italy, so I have an ulterior motive.)

I love Chablis, what are it’s neighbors on the Wine Flavor Wheel?

[Al_Osterheld]

You can also find decent sparkling wines made from 100% Xinomavro.

-Al

[Otto_Forsberg]

If I’m buying a Xinomavro, I’d expect it to be pale and a brick hue wouldn’t be a problem. However, a dark, concentrated Xinomavro would only raise eyebrows.

Allowing for the fact that Xynomavro is indeed generally not exactly the darkest, most thickly coloured wine around, and assuming, naturally, that there is quite a broad spectrum between “pale”, “brick hue” and “dark, concentrated”, my impression is that Xynomavro covers a somewhat broader chromatic range than just “pale and brick hue”, also depending on where it is grown.

That I do agree on. After all, Nebbiolo tends to come in a quite range of different colors as well - although a dark, concentrated and opaque Nebbiolo always raises suspicions in me!

My main point was that if the color was the problem here, I really don’t see the point in trying to make the wine appear darker than what it is. However, if one aims for a softer and fruitier wine, it makes more sense (just not to me, because soft, fruity wines aren’t really my thing).

[Mark_Livingston]

I had my first ever Xinomavro this fall, 2016 Kir-Yianni Ramnista which is 100% Xinomavro. It was served with 3 other Greek wines to pair with a dinner my wife made but this was definitely the star. Having it with so many other wines I didn’t get to give it the attention it deserved so went out and bought a few more bottles the next day. My first reaction was Nebbiolo but excited to try it again as it was very impressive.

[Otto_Forsberg]

I had my first ever Xinomavro this fall, 2016 Kir-Yianni Ramnista which is 100% Xinomavro. It was served with 3 other Greek wines to pair with a dinner my wife made but this was definitely the star. Having it with so many other wines I didn’t get to give it the attention it deserved so went out and bought a few more bottles the next day. My first reaction was Nebbiolo but excited to try it again as it was very impressive.

If you liked it, keep your eyes peeled for Kir-Yianni’s Kali Riza from Amyndeon. It’s another Xinomavro, but while Ramnista is a bit more modern in style with heavier emphasis on ripeness and oak, Kali Riza is more focused and pure with a bit more delicate fruit and virtually no obvious oak influence - without losing the firm, grippy, Nebbiolo-like character that is typical of a great Xinomavro.