Xinomavro, Mencia, Nerello Mascalese, ???????

[Mark_Livingston]

I had my first ever Xinomavro this fall, 2016 Kir-Yianni Ramnista which is 100% Xinomavro. It was served with 3 other Greek wines to pair with a dinner my wife made but this was definitely the star. Having it with so many other wines I didn’t get to give it the attention it deserved so went out and bought a few more bottles the next day. My first reaction was Nebbiolo but excited to try it again as it was very impressive.

If you liked it, keep your eyes peeled for Kir-Yianni’s Kali Riza from Amyndeon. It’s another Xinomavro, but while Ramnista is a bit more modern in style with heavier emphasis on ripeness and oak, Kali Riza is more focused and pure with a bit more delicate fruit and virtually no obvious oak influence - without losing the firm, grippy, Nebbiolo-like character that is typical of a great Xinomavro.

Will do, I’ll check the shop I bought it at to see if he has it or can get it. Otherwise I’ll search for another source as it sounds great. The Ramnista did come across as modern which is not typically my style but it seemed to pull it off fairly well.

[Tvrtko_C]

Funny how perceptions of the same wine can vary quite a bit. I’ve always felt that Kali Riza is the fruitier, less serious wine, in a manner of speaking. Ramnista, on the other hand, while perhaps not showing as overtly old-school as some other wines from the area right out of the gate, seems to invariably end up in more or less the same place as, say, Boutari’s Grande Reserve or Founti’s Naoussaia. It’s just that it normally needs 10+ years to get there.

[Otto_Forsberg]

Funny how perceptions of the same wine can vary quite a bit. I’ve always felt that Kali Riza is the fruitier, less serious wine, in a manner of speaking. Ramnista, on the other hand, while perhaps not showing as overtly old-school as some other wines from the area right out of the gate, seems to invariably end up in more or less the same place as, say, Boutari’s Grande Reserve or Founti’s Naoussaia. It’s just that it normally needs 10+ years to get there.

Definitely. I certainly agree with you in that Ramnista is the more ageworthy of these two. It just takes quite a bit of time to lose its more modernist qualities, whereas Boutari’s Grande Reserve seems to be pretty old-school from the get-go. Haven’t tasted Founti yet!

Kali Riza might be less serious, but I wouldn’t call it fruitier - to me it is more restrained and delicate; it’s like an old-school Alto Piemonte Nebbiolo compared to the Ramnista’s more modernist Barolo/Barbaresco expression. Ramnista might become more impressive with age, but for earlier consumption, Kali Riza offers me more pleasure - and I still wouldn’t call it particularly “easy” or “early drinking” wine with its firm tannic structure and quite tightly-knit nature!

[Tvrtko_C]

Sure, Kali Riza for earlier drinking. I’m just not really that drawn to that particular wine, but I guess it might have more to do with the fact that I am not such a huge fan of Amyntaio (gonna have to talk to my GP about it eventually…). The only red wine I actually really care about from that area is Laurens Hartman’s Old-Vine bottling. And that happens to have loads of seriously deep, almost impenetrable colour on it
Other than that, I see what you mean, just not really sure I would commit on the Alto Piemonte reference. Partly because old-school Alto Piemonte means a number of relatively different things to me, and partly because, despite a handful of shared features, I am generally not such a huge fan of taking the Xynomavro-Nebbiolo analogy quite that far.

[Tvrtko_C]

You can also find decent sparkling wines made from 100% Xinomavro.

You can say that again… In my world, Karanika makes not just the hands-down best sparkling wines in Greece, but also some of the best sparkling wines outside Champagne.

[Otto_Forsberg]

Other than that, I see what you mean, just not really sure I would commit on the Alto Piemonte reference. Partly because old-school Alto Piemonte means a number of relatively different things to me, and partly because, despite a handful of shared features, I am generally not such a huge fan of taking the Xynomavro-Nebbiolo analogy quite that far.

Perfectly understandable! I’m not here saying that they’d be identical, but instead using these parallels to just show the general differences in a way that would be more understandable to people who are not that familiar with Greek wines. After all, most people here know Nebbiolo pretty well and quite many have tasted at least some Alto Piemontese reds, while - at least I suppose - people who have even tasted Xinomavro, let alone compared several at one go are few and far between.

And yes, Alto Piemonte encompasses several quite different styles of wine, but I’d still argue that the general style of Boca/Lessona/Gattinara/Ghemme/Bramaterra/Fara shows more coherence to each other in comparison to the B’n’Bs of Langhe (even though there are numerous of different styles made there as well).

[James_Billy]

You may or not see any similarities between these grapes, but which one(s) do you prefer and why? Is there another a similar grape that you like.

I see them as similar in some respects to pinot, nebbiolo and gamay, but, especially the first two, are still a bit niche compared to pinot and nebbiolo.

Yes, yes, yes, stupid question. Blah, blah, blah…

Not stupid.

Someone should invent a wine version of Pandora; if you like Pinot Noir you will like these other varieties.

I’m certain I’ve seen something like that before, I just can’t remember where. Sorry for not before helpful.

[James_Billy]

You may or not see any similarities between these grapes, but which one(s) do you prefer and why? Is there another a similar grape that you like.

I see them as similar in some respects to pinot, nebbiolo and gamay, but, especially the first two, are still a bit niche compared to pinot and nebbiolo.

Yes, yes, yes, stupid question. Blah, blah, blah…

Not stupid.

Someone should invent a wine version of Pandora; if you like Pinot Noir you will like these other varieties.

If you like Pinot Noir and southern Italy then there are Nerello Mascalese wines in your wheel house.

Personally I don’t get the “and (you like) Southern Italy” bit. I like good wine regardless of where it comes from.

But that’s just me!

[James_Billy]

Someone should invent a wine version of Pandora; if you like Pinot Noir you will like these other varieties.

CellarTracker has millions of data points it could use to power that algorithm and probably nail some recs to a way more specific level than grape variety…

I find even professional TNs vary hugely from one writer to the next, finding commonality between amateurs is going to be tough.

[Al_Osterheld]

You can also find decent sparkling wines made from 100% Xinomavro.

You can say that again… In my world, Karanika makes not just the hands-down best sparkling wines in Greece, but also some of the best sparkling wines outside Champagne.

Karanika are the best I’ve had. I’m guessing the slow ripening, high acid, and thin skin aspects are well suited to sparkling wines.

-Al

[James_Billy]

Impressive winery. 150 year old ungrafted vines (for red wine.)

[Paul_abbott]

Just tasting a 2018 Peique Bierzo, light purple red, nose of cherry fruit and what I call grassy, but my wife says is cabbage tones. Positive acidity and light structure. A refreshing red that for me fills the same niche as Cabernet Franc.